South Dakota Execution

[Socrates]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052445' date='Aug 28 2006, 08:58 PM']
If killing someone isn't cruel then why does the law punish murderers?
[/quote]
Because it is wrong to unjustly take the life of another.
But when one unjustly takes the life of another, he forfeits his own right to life.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/306402.htm"]St. Thomas Aquinas on the death penalty[/url]

God Himself commanded that people be put to death for murder and other crimes.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052433' date='Aug 28 2006, 10:35 PM']
Well the government is executing him only because it fail him as a child terribly.
[/quote]
That is a crock.
The government is executing him because he was lawfully condemned for the murder of an innocent human being. The government has that right and the Catholic Church agrees that the state has that right. Emotionally that may not sit well with you, but emotions don't rule law.
Have some pity on his poor parents and the family of the murdered man, instead of the perp who beat someone senseless.

[catholicinsd]

Eli's life is valuable just as all life is valuable. Jesus hung on a cross for him. His debts are already paid.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052528' date='Aug 28 2006, 10:15 PM']
Eli's life is valuable just as all life is valuable. Jesus hung on a cross for him. His debts are already paid.
[/quote]
Then I guess there is no such thing as a Mortal Sin which results in condeming yourself to eternal life in Hell.
His debt was paid... Luther said so.

[catholicinsd]

Jesus said "The first shall be last and the last be first." As you people support this violence, so shall this act befall your house. And the victims of execution will be raised to God's throne, while you all suffer for your unholy lack of mercy.

May God have mercy on all your souls.

[Anomaly]

I think a Catholic just put a curse on me...

[ardillacid]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052541' date='Aug 28 2006, 11:27 PM']
Jesus said "The first shall be last and the last be first." As you people support this violence, so shall this act befall your house. And the victims of execution will be raised to God's throne, while you all suffer for your unholy lack of mercy.

May God have mercy on all your souls.
[/quote]
way to totally judge just like you told us not to do

[catholicinsd]

I don't think Iwas being judgemental but anyway.

Holy God, Have Mercy on Eli
Father of Us, Have Mercy on Eli
Jesus, Have Mercy on Eli
Executed Lamb, Have Mercy on Eli
Divine Fetus, Have Mercy on Eli
Holy Spirit, Have Mercy on Eli
Holy Mary, Pray for Eli
Mother of the Executed, Pray for Eli
Our Lady of the Prarie, Pray for Eli
St. Michael, Pray for Eli
Holy Elijah, Pray for Eli
Chester Poage, Pray for Eli

All ye Native Dakota Spirits be with him

Amen

[ardillacid]

what are you a pagan?

[Aloysius]

hmm... demonize the opposition, beg the question, and ignore all logical arguments.. seems like a good way to win a debate to me (in your own mind).

seriously, stop for a minute, clear your mind of emotional attachments to this issue, and calmly look at the facts.

God instituted the death penalty directly. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament. Jesus did not call upon anyone to abolish the death penalty: God's law still stands as long as Jesus did not abrogate it: "Whosoever shed a man's blood by man shall his blood be shed"

Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until the end of time". God's law still stands: "Whosoever shed a man's blood by man shall his blood be shed"

Jesus' Church consistently teaches that the execution of anyone who is guilty of a grave crime is a good and just thing. The Church in the modern world calls for increased use of non-lethal means and decreased use of execution as she sees this as a greater good, but she does say that execution itself is no longer good and just (for moral law does not change with the changing of the seasons, it is eternal and unchangeable Truth)

Eli accepts his punishment of death (by all indications) and feels that it is justice for a henious crime he committed. To him, as to many repentent murderers, this is the only way he can know justice is satisfied and his put his soul at ease. He, like many repentent murderers, is likely haunted by the eyes of his victim and wants to face up to that action he did when he killed one man and at the same time killed his own soul and his own right to live. If this man understands and accepts his punishment, taking upon him the acceptance of the punishment and the virtue of expiation, then how much more is this execution something good and holy: we are sending a man to His Eternal Judge with a repentent heart. We are sending him to face his victim and be given the chance to directly apologize. We are sending Him to the place where The Divine Healer can heal His soul from all the damage it has due to his childhood and his own life sins.

The anti-death penalty movement originated out of the 'Enlightenment' disbelief in an afterlife. The Catholic anti-death penalty movement cannot have the same motivations or resemble it in any way shape or form, because the Catholic is bound by Catholic doctrine to believe that the death penalty is the right of the state and that there is an eternal justice which sorts out all Justice in the end.

[catholicinsd]

Elijah Page is my brother. He your bother, also. How can you all call for his blood?

You all would have been the ones calling on Pilate in order Christ's death.

[Aloysius]

Again: stop with the emotional appeals and attempt to excercise human reason. I have not called for anyone's blood.

Christ Himself accepted death. It seems you would have been with Peter drawing your sword to defend Him though He didn't want to be defended (if He had He would have called upon legions of angels to defend Him). Christ knew that for the sins of humanity He had to die.

Elijah knows that for his own sins against humanity he must die. He accepts it, why can't you?

Before you reply: stop. think. do not lash out emotionally. do not call us evil bloodthirsty hippocrites. choose your words, order them in a coherent logical fashion.

[styx chyx]

Just want to say that this is a really awesome thread, some really strong arguments coming through which, personally, I really like to read.

However as (an Australian) someone who has never in any way experienced ANYTHING to do with the death penalty (except of course for knowing of its existence in our past and other countries far and wide), I am personally against its use. I can't help but wonder if this man has accepted the death penalty because he sees a struggle against it as fruitless (perhaps due to his past, struggling against the inevitable?), he is tired of fighting in general, or if perhaps he has accepted his actions as wrong, and wants to see justice done. Personally, I think that it would be much more comendable and beneficial to see this man separated from society, and taught God's word in safety (ie PRISON!!!). If he truly accepts God into his heart, he will truly suffer the pain he has brought on the victim's family, and on God, will learn, repent, understand, eventually forgive himself and give the family a chance to forgive him also. If he doesn't learn the word of God, then he will do so rather quickly when God decides his time on Earth is at an end.

Now, I am NOT saying that he should then be realeased into society, but I feel that a world which encourages personal growth, mercy and forgiveness is far preferable to one which supports 'justice' or possibly revenge?

[bball33]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1052775' date='Aug 29 2006, 11:33 AM']
Again: stop with the emotional appeals and attempt to excercise human reason. I have not called for anyone's blood.

Christ Himself accepted death. It seems you would have been with Peter drawing your sword to defend Him though He didn't want to be defended (if He had He would have called upon legions of angels to defend Him). Christ knew that for the sins of humanity He had to die.

Elijah knows that for his own sins against humanity he must die. He accepts it, why can't you?

Before you reply: stop. think. do not lash out emotionally. do not call us evil bloodthirsty hippocrites. choose your words, order them in a coherent logical fashion.
[/quote]

I would like to point out that the Church, according to the Catechism, condemns the use of the dealth penalty when other means may be used. He must be a danger to society that cannot be contained in other ways. I don't necc. agree with catholicinsd's arguments, but he is right-we should never take the life of another, and if someone does, God is the judge, not us. In my opinion, he should live.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052764' date='Aug 29 2006, 12:25 PM']
Elijah Page is my brother. He your bother, also. How can you all call for his blood?

You all would have been the ones calling on Pilate in order Christ's death.
[/quote]

Aren't you being a bit ridiculous at this point? Being insulting doesn't help your argument.
Actions have real consequences, and the real consequence of cold-blooded murder is that you forfeit your own right to existance. The state has the right to execute murderers, always has and the Church has always agreed with it.
The Church can and should always call for justice tempered with mercy, but it is the right of the state to administer justice.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052764' date='Aug 29 2006, 10:25 AM']
Elijah Page is my brother. He your bother, also. How can you all call for his blood?

You all would have been the ones calling on Pilate in order Christ's death.
[/quote]No. We would have been the ones calling for Barabas' death for murder.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1052775' date='Aug 29 2006, 11:33 AM']

Elijah knows that for his own sins against humanity he must die. He accepts it, why can't you?

[/quote]

He is accepting it only because the State has broken him severly, and caused him to be suicidal.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='catholicinsd' post='1052854' date='Aug 29 2006, 01:35 PM']
He is accepting it only because the State has broken him severly, and caused him to be suicidal.
[/quote]
says you...

[Aloysius]

[quote name='michaelismycn' post='1052801' date='Aug 29 2006, 01:11 PM']
I would like to point out that the Church, according to the Catechism, condemns the use of the dealth penalty when other means may be used. He must be a danger to society that cannot be contained in other ways. I don't necc. agree with catholicinsd's arguments, but he is right-we should never take the life of another, and if someone does, God is the judge, not us. In my opinion, he should live.
[/quote]
my entire argument is based upon the catechism. if you didn't see that, go back and re-read my posts. the Catechsim clearly posits it as a lesser good to use the death penalty when non-lethal means are sufficient and exorts states to do the greater good. it doesn't condemn it as murder; it is never murder when the person is guilty of murder.

none of us know Elijah's motivations for not appealing. but as Catholics we should hope that his reasons are an acceptance of what we, as Catholics, see as true justice for his crime so that he acheives the virtue of expiation in his acceptance of death.

Elijah became suicidal the same day he became homicidal: HOMICIDE IS SUICIDE in the Christian tradition and in Christian doctrine. He has already killed himself, letting him live is the action which is over and above what he deserves. it is letting him live which would satisfy the greater good. but letting him die would satisfy the regular good, the ordinary good, ordinary justice. it cannot be considered an evil in any way, shape, or form. the only thing that can be considered evil is the decision by the state against the greater good. if the lesser good is done, it is still a good; the decision not to do the greater good was a wrong decision.

[catholicinsd]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1052892' date='Aug 29 2006, 02:22 PM']


Elijah became suicidal the same day he became homicidal: HOMICIDE IS SUICIDE in the Christian tradition and in Christian doctrine.
[/quote]

Show me that doctrine.

PS Dotrines don't regulate morals.