A Glaring Example Of Vaticanese

[Budge]

[quote]The more than 200 religious leaders had not come to [u]"pray together" [/u]-- that would be theologically problematic, since, according to Vatican officials, joint prayer presupposes agreement on the nature of the God being addressed -- [u]but "to be together and pray."[/u][/quote]

Like changing the order of those words changes the meaning of those words.

This is the kind of stuff Im talking about when I discuss Vaticanese spoken not only by Cardinals, Popes and bishops but their spokesmen.

[url="http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/"]LINK[/url]
[size=5]
1Cr 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.[/size]

[Farsight one]

Try a 3rd grade grammar class. Changing the order of words DOES change the meaning of them, unless you're yoda.

[Budge]

Ok you tell me the difference then.

PRAY TOGETHER or

TO BE TOGETHER AND PRAY.

More straining of gnats from the Pharisees of confusion.

All to fool you folks into universalism.

[stbernardLT]

Can you manipulate scripture anymore than this.

New American Bible:

1 Corinthians 14:32-34

"Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets' control, since he is not the God of disorder but of peace.

As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says."

I guess you think we don't have any bible laying around.

This whole passage is about rules of order and prophets taken turns sharing prophecy. It says nothing about what you are talking about. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Budge]

What does that have to do with this topic?

[stbernardLT]

You manipulating scripture has everything to do with every topic or discussion you enter. You connect two verses from different paragraphs and expect phatmassers to let that pass. How can anyone take your arguements seriously when you can't even quote scripture correctly.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059098' date='Sep 8 2006, 02:21 PM']
Ok you tell me the difference then.[/quote]

[quote]PRAY TOGETHER[/quote]
This implies group prayer, as in multiple people praying the same prayer. It also does NOT necessarily mean that the individuals involved are in fact praying the same prayer, but it is a possible meaning. Another possible meaning is the same as that of the other phrase. (see below)

In this phrase, "pray" and "together" have been combined so that they have one single meaning.

[quote]TO BE TOGETHER AND PRAY[/quote]this means that multiple people are together, i.e. in each other's immediate vicinity and are praying at the same time. It is non necessarily the same prayer.

In this phrase, "pray" and "together", while in the same phrase, are seperated by the "and" and retain their individual meaning.

Taking both phrases completely in the context of what was said:
[quote]The more than 200 religious leaders had not come to "pray together" -- that would be theologically problematic, since, according to Vatican officials, joint prayer presupposes agreement on the nature of the God being addressed -- but "to be together and pray."[/quote] It becomes clear that the speaker in comparing the two phrases and showing the important difference between them, so we can know that "pray together" holds the initial meaning I presented for it.


I REALLY don't want to sound as though I'm insulting you, but seriously, most people can tell the difference at a very young age, and I fail to comprehend how you cannot.

[Winchester]

See, Budgie, now I know you're simply being a moron on purpose.

You can't take the troll thing too far or you expose yourself. To really bait people, you have to be moderate.

I expected better of you; you were one of the best baiters I'd seen, although actually responding to questions put to you would have put you in the top ten, you did make the top fifty.

You have fallen far with this one; it's hurt your credibility. I mean, even I was starting to respond to you with some seriousnes, occasionally.

Get an IP spoofer, a new nick, a new style, and try again.

[Budge]

[quote]
This implies group prayer, as in multiple people praying the same prayer. It also does NOT necessarily mean that the individuals involved are in fact praying the same prayer, but it is a possible meaning. Another possible meaning is the same as that of the other phrase. (see below)

In this phrase, "pray" and "together" have been combined so that they have one single meaning.

QUOTE
TO BE TOGETHER AND PRAY
this means that multiple people are together, i.e. in each other's immediate vicinity and are praying at the same time. It is non necessarily the same prayer.

In this phrase, "pray" and "together", while in the same phrase, are seperated by the "and" and retain their individual meaning.

Taking both phrases completely in the context of what was said:[/quote]

If it takes you 5 paragraphs to explain their twisting of words, why bother?

Its nonsense.

the apostles never prayed together or were together in prayer with pagans.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

well, except for that crazy Paul who dared to recognize the pagan altar to an "unknown god" and declare that horrid pagan god to be the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, and David to be the very God made flesh-- Jesus Christ!! How dare Paul make that pagan conception comparable to the Christian God!

Do you tear the letters of Paul and the Acts of the Apostles (where the "nonsense" occurs) from your Bible, Budge?

Edited September 8, 2006 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Farsight one]

Like i said in another topic, I don't really like using extra large fonts, but I think I'm going to...

[size=5]HEY![/size]

It took me 5 paragraphs to explain because you lack the comprehension skills to understand the difference between two simple phrases. I could have explained the difference in two sentences, but I figured you'd just claim that what I said meant nothing. So, I made it as clear and complete as possible, but you have to ***** and complain every chance you get.

I made it clear and concise out of the kindness of my heart. I didn't have to explain a thing. I could have just sat back and laughed at what I percieve to be your ignorance, but just as [i]you[/i] don't sit back and laugh at what you percieve to be my ignorance, and instead try to help, I tried to help as well.

2. (Yes, I know there was no official point 1.) You call it twisting of words? When one twists words, their attempt is to deceive. He was clarifying and showing the difference between the two - that one was bad and the other ok. You, by calling it word twisting instead of clarification are the one doing the deceiving. You KNOW that to be true, and you need to go confess this to your christian friends and family.


3. The apostles never prayed with pagans because pagans don't pray! How can one pray with someone who doesn't pray? Yes, I know the pagans had gods of their own, but they don't [i]pray[/i] to their gods.

btw, when debating online, if you agree with a point someone made, you generally just leave it out of your respone. Disagreement warrants a response. Admitting you were wrong about a point also warrants respons. So all of your lack of responses in other topics is probably sending a signal to the rest of us that you had no intention of sending. At least say that you still disagree, but choose to no longer respond.

[Budge]

Im sorry but you can use all the verbal spaghetti, but the core point is, I do not believe in Christians yoking with pagans to pray..... in the same room, together, upside down, in the mosque, in the assisi convent.

NO WHERE.

Youre not going to fool me with your splitting of hairs and straining at gnats to excuse the indefensible.

[MIKolbe]

there's a thread about ignoring budge[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=57028"]...seems interesting...[/url]

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Hey Budge... did you see my comment?!

I wanna know what you think of Paul...

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1059191' date='Sep 8 2006, 05:17 PM']
Im sorry but you can use all the verbal spaghetti, but the core point is, I do not believe in Christians yoking with pagans to pray..... in the same room, together, upside down, in the mosque, in the assisi convent.

NO WHERE.

Youre not going to fool me with your splitting of hairs and straining at gnats to excuse the indefensible.
[/quote]Where did I split hairs? where did I strain at gnats? heck, do you even know what those mean, or did you just make them up? and what is verbal spaghetti?

And as well, once again, you're twisting and/or confusing the meaning of words. "Christians yoking with pagans to pray" is implicating that they are praying together, when that is exactly what the quote says NOT to do. If a christian and a pagan are praying to the one true God, to be converted even you admitted you'd be willing to pray with them.

What you are unwilling to do is pray to the one true God in the presence of someone praying to a false god. I ask what is wrong with that? You can pray anywhere, in the presence of anyone. To think otherwise is simply foolishness. Since you believe that everything you need to know about your faith comes from the bible, I request that you find me a quote from the bible that openly states that one should not do what you refuse to.