What I Learned In My Years In Catholic School

[Eutychus]

[quote] Worship simply means to honour... so yes, I, a Catholic do worship the Pope, though the worship I give him is less than that of Latria or Dulia.[/quote]

Oh come on, historically, the trail of tears leading to the hubris and ego manifestations of the loons that murdered their way to the barque of peter is long and well established.

I would submit, that a man, who ALLOWED others to call him "SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH" has crossed that line, a term that has been used, loved, and abused all too often by the thug wearing silk and lace riding in a gilded chair, carried by Catholic Rickshaw Coolies.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/GestatorialChair1.jpg/200px-GestatorialChair1.jpg[/img]

Just so you cannot make the fallacious false claim, that this originates from an anti-Catholic source, ALL these quotes are from the Vatican website itself!

[quote]
[b]
The Lord Pope - Sweet Christ On Earth?[/b]

There are currently at least five documents on the Vatican web site that use the blasphemous phrase "sweet Christ on earth" to describe the Pope-

46. ... In founders and foundresses we see a constant and lively sense of the Church, which they manifest by their full participation in all aspects of the Church's life, and in their ready obedience to the Bishops and especially to the Roman Pontiff. Against this background of love towards Holy Church, "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for "the Lord Pope", the daughterly outspokenness of [u]Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called "sweet Christ on earth",[/u] the apostolic obedience and the sentire cum Ecclesia of Saint Ignatius Loyola, and the joyful profession of faith made by Saint Teresa of Avila: "I am a daughter of the Church". ...

Vatican Source #1: Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation VITA CONSECRATA, (On The Consecrated Life And Its Mission In The Church And In The World), March 25, 1996.

*

The same document at Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN)

7. ... With the same vigour, Catherine addressed Churchmen of every rank, demanding of them the most exacting integrity in their personal lives and their pastoral ministry. The uninhibited, powerful and incisive tone in which she admonished priests, Bishops and Cardinals is quite striking. It is essential — she would say — to root out from the garden of the Church the rotten plants and to put in their place “new plants” which are fresh and fragrant. And strengthened by her intimacy with Christ, the Saint of Siena was not afraid to point out frankly even to the Pope, whom she loved dearly as[u] her “sweet Christ on earth”,[/u] that the will of God demanded that he should abandon the hesitation born of earthly prudence and worldly interests, and return from Avignon to Rome, to the Tomb of Peter. ...

Vatican Source #2: Pope John Paul II, Motu Proprio proclaiming Co-Patronesses of Europe, October 1st, 1999.

* The same document at Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN)
* The same document at Catholic Information Network (CIN)

ST. CATHERINE AND THE PRIESTS:
A MESSAGE FOR THE CHURCH OF THE THIRD MILLENNIUM

Your Eminencies, Excellencies, reverend and dear priests, I feel especially honoured to provide this small service to you, whom St. Catherine of Siena defines as "Ministers of the Blood of Christ", in this patriarchal Basilica, centre of Catholicism, housing the Chair of he who is the "Sweet Christ on earth". ...

Only the Pope could correct the defects of the priests, and not the laity who should always revere them, since Christ left to the Apostle Peter and his successors the key of His Blood, from which all the Sacraments gain life. [u]The Pope, with ardent faith recognized by Catherine as "sweet Christ on earth" and called with tender affection "My kindest daddy" [/u]is asked to work strongly for the reform of the Church. "Intervene to eliminate the stink of the ministers of the Holy Church; pull out the stinking flowers and plant scented plants, virtuous men who fear God". ...

Vatican Source #3: Lecture by Professor Maria Antonietta Falchi Pellegrini, Vatican's Paul VI Hall, (17 May 2000).

... The twentieth century was one of the most crucial in human history, with its tragic and cruel events culminating in the assassination [u]attempt on the “sweet Christ on earth”. [/u]Now a veil is drawn back on a series of events which make history and interpret it in depth, in a spiritual perspective alien to present-day attitudes, often tainted with rationalism. ...

Vatican Source #4: Introduction to the Third Secret of Fatima, by Tarcisio Bertone, SDB, Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli, Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The identical text regarding the Third Secret of Fatima also appears on scores of Catholic web sites, to include the following:

* Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN)
* Catholic Information Network (CIN)

This Synod can be read, in this area, as an expression of full communion with and in the Universal Church, and with[b] [u]the Roman Pontiff His Holiness John Paul II "the sweet Christ on earth".[/u][/b]

Vatican Source #5: Synodus Episcoporum 15 - 8.10.1999

The same text at Zenit: Address by Rev. Sr. Irina - M. Ioana BOTA, O.S.B.M., Provincial Superior in Romania of the Order of Basilian Sisters and President of the Romanian Conferences of Superiors Major, Romania, October 8th 1999, to the Twelfth General Congregation of the Second Special Assembly for Europe of the Synod of Bishops, in the Vatican's Synod Hall.

The phrase "sweet Christ on Earth" is a quote of St. Catherine of Siena [1347-1380] who used the phrase in a letter to Pope Gregory XI-

[u]... I tell you, sweet Christ on earth, [/u]on behalf of Christ in Heaven, that if you do this, without strife or tempest, they will all come grieving for the wrong they have done, and lay their heads on your bosom. Then you will rejoice, and we shall rejoice, because by love you have restored the sheep to the fold of Holy Church. And then, sweet my father, you will fulfill your holy desire and the will of God by starting the holy Crusade, which I summon you in his name to do swiftly and without negligence. They will turn to it with great eagerness; they are ready to give their lives for Christ. Ah me, God, sweet Love! Raise swiftly, father, the banner of the most holy Cross and you will see the wolves become lambs. Peace, peace, peace, that war may not delay that happy time! ...

Source: SAINT CATHERINE OF SIENA VIRGIN, Letter to Gregory XI translated by Vida D. Scudder, 1906, from Lives of Saints, Published by John J. Crawley & Co., Inc., on EWTN's web site.[/quote]

Edited September 12, 2006 by Eutychus

[Budge]

[quote]

I am confused by what you mean by the gospel is not taught in the Church. My thinking is that of course it is because it is read at every mass followed by a homily on the readings. This does not seem to be what you are talking about.[/quote]

I never heard YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN, in a Catholic church.

[size=4]Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.[/size]

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062179' date='Sep 13 2006, 07:15 PM']
I never heard YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN, in a Catholic church.

[size=4]Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.[/size]
[/quote]
I was born again in baptism. I teach that same truth to all my PSR kids...

[Budge]

That is one Catholic belief, that makes me scared for all of you.

You cant assume that you entered into a relationship with Christ just because you had some water splashed on you as a baby.

I know it didnt make me born again. I wouldnt know Jesus Christ until my 30s.

As a baby if that is when you were baptized--majority of Catholics baptized at infancy...it is impossible that you became born again.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

it's not impossible, because it was the work of grace that made me born again, not something of myself.

my responsibility was to accept that grace as I could and respond to it.. which I did as I grew up and continue to seek the Lord's will for my life.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062185' date='Sep 13 2006, 09:23 PM']
That is one Catholic belief, that makes me scared for all of you.

You cant assume that you entered into a relationship with Christ just because you had some water splashed on you as a baby.

I know it didnt make me born again. I wouldnt know Jesus Christ until my 30s.

As a baby if that is when you were baptized--majority of Catholics baptized at infancy...it is impossible that you became born again.
[/quote]
Does the Bible say that it's impossible to be born again as a baby?

[CatholicCid]

Out of wonder, what happens to someone who turns away from your church Ms. (or Mrs.) Budge?

If they were born again, accept a relationship with Christ, but later turned away... Were they really born again?
What happens if they wish to return?

What exactly would you consider a relationship with Christ as well?

Edited September 14, 2006 by CatholicCid

[Budge]

[quote]it's not impossible, because it was the work of grace that made me born again, not something of myself.[/quote]

That is not being born again...you were a little baby without the ability to even understand GRACE.

Where is the conviction in that or becoming a new creature in Christ and repenting of your sins?

Being saved in Jesus Christ is knowing you are His, and it is basically coming out of your own dark pit and thinking you can work your way to heaven and putting all your trust in Him and loving God and following His Commandments not because you are just afraid of going to hell but out of gratitude and feeling His Love, and realizing the FREE gift of salvation.

It is not only knowing ABOUT Jesus {This described me during my years in the UU} but knowing Him personally, feeling His Hand on your life day by day, knowing He is always there, trusting in Gods power and promises, and loving Gods Word. When one becomes a Christian ones life does change in every facet.


[size=4]Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration."[/size]

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062185' date='Sep 13 2006, 09:23 PM']
That is one Catholic belief, that makes me scared for all of you.

You cant assume that you entered into a relationship with Christ just because you had some water splashed on you as a baby.

I know it didnt make me born again. I wouldnt know Jesus Christ until my 30s.

As a baby if that is when you were baptized--majority of Catholics baptized at infancy...it is impossible that you became born again.
[/quote]

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. I didn't think that we had the same understanding. So, you had what I would call a convertion in your 30s.

I obviously disagree with you as to infant baptism. I don't assume that one has entered into a relationship with Christ from the time of Baptism. I trust that the Lord has added another to His body. After all, He has the ability to claim a soul as His and to change that soul.

[Budge]

[quote]
I obviously disagree with you as to infant baptism. I don't assume that one has entered into a relationship with Christ from the time of Baptism. I trust that the Lord has added another to His body. After all, He has the ability to claim a soul as His and to change that soul.
[/quote]

So if some of the little babies dont get saved at the baptism font doesnt that mean the baptism ceremony has NOTHING to do with that babies salvation? I wasnt some evil baby, that renounced Christ at 9 days old while my priest splashed me. Here you are kind of claiming some Calvinism that God goes and claims His elect :ie some of the babies get saved at the baptismal font, and some dont...

I wont argue with you in that I believe that God knows whose going to be written in the book of Life...{wont be via Catholic baptism and ritual though} Even Ive asked while my undeserving self got taken out of the UU in one day..leaving the rest of the atheists, pagans, and universalists on the path to hell.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Does one have to understand grace in order to receive it? I'm quite sure I don't understand even now all the implications of divine grace.

For that matter, what about mentally handicapped people? Are they incapable of receiving grace and being born again simply because they cannot understand grace?

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062315' date='Sep 14 2006, 12:20 AM']
So if some of the little babies dont get saved at the baptism font doesnt that mean the baptism ceremony has NOTHING to do with that babies salvation? I wasnt some evil baby, that renounced Christ at 9 days old while my priest splashed me. Here you are kind of claiming some Calvinism that God goes and claims His elect :ie some of the babies get saved at the baptismal font, and some dont...

I wont argue with you in that I believe that God knows whose going to be written in the book of Life...{wont be via Catholic baptism and ritual though} Even Ive asked while my undeserving self got taken out of the UU in one day..leaving the rest of the atheists, pagans, and universalists on the path to hell.
[/quote]

Ultimately, my salvation is not guaranteed my baptism or by anything I do. Ultimately, my salvation comes down to the will of God. In the meantime, I grow closer to Him in following His commandments and accepting the graces given me.

As you know from your past in the Catholic Church, baptism does not guarantee salvation. I don't want to Hijack the thread by turning it into a discussion of Baptism and once saved always saved.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1062190' date='Sep 13 2006, 07:28 PM']
Out of wonder, what happens to someone who turns away from your church Ms. (or Mrs.) Budge?

If they were born again, accept a relationship with Christ, but later turned away... Were they really born again?
What happens if they wish to return?

What exactly would you consider a relationship with Christ as well?
[/quote]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1062334' date='Sep 13 2006, 11:32 PM']
For that matter, what about mentally handicapped people? Are they incapable of receiving grace and being born again simply because they cannot understand grace?
[/quote]
This is the biggest hole in Protestant thinking about baptism. They view baptism as a point in time when you decide to accept Jesus in your life. What happens when you are incapable of making that decision because of physical impairment? Do they never enter heaven?

(Take note Budge.)
The Catholic interpretation of baptism is spot on. Duh. Baptism is a sacrament that welcomes someone as a new member of Jesus' family, His Church. Just as you were born into a physical family and took a name, baptism brings birth to you into a spiritual/divine family. You also take a name just like in physical birth, the name of a saint. Physical birth did not ask for consent, did not ask what your IQ is or your physical condition, and any other survey. I was made a member of my earthly family by my parents' will. In baptism of infants and children, you are claimed as a member of Jesus' holy family by your parents (or guardians). With your physical birth and spiritual birth completed, you are made whole. It doesn't mean you'll be sinless forever. Confession restores the wholeness sin corrupts.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062315' date='Sep 13 2006, 10:20 PM']
So if some of the little babies dont get saved at the baptism font doesnt that mean the baptism ceremony has NOTHING to do with that babies salvation? I wasnt some evil baby, that renounced Christ at 9 days old while my priest splashed me. Here you are kind of claiming some Calvinism that God goes and claims His elect :ie some of the babies get saved at the baptismal font, and some dont...

I wont argue with you in that I believe that God knows whose going to be written in the book of Life...{wont be via Catholic baptism and ritual though} Even Ive asked while my undeserving self got taken out of the UU in one day..leaving the rest of the atheists, pagans, and universalists on the path to hell.
[/quote]
Budge,
This is a great topic to discuss with the Caths. I'll start a topic...

[Budge]

Ok thanks:)

[Aloysius]

it sounds to me like you have earned grace and faith by your ability to understand them at the age of reason... but us Catholics inexplicably understand that grace and faith are completely free gifts which God can even give to babes who have not reached the age of reason.

[Budge]

Considering the world is full of atheist, agnostic, pagan and God-rejecting little sprinkled babies....Catholic infant baptism just means a baby got wet.

I think even Madilyn O'Hare got baptized in a Presby church, they have too many left over Catholic errors. It didnt "take" either.

Since I grew up to be a Christ rejecter for many many years... {my parents did take me to church and were good parents who prayed etc} doesnt this mean that your baptism doesnt work for all babies? Doesnt that make the belief that your sacraments automatically imparts grace FALSE?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

No, it means that God doesn't force Himself on anyone and that people can (and do) reject grace.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' post='1062650' date='Sep 14 2006, 02:35 PM']
No, it means that God doesn't force Himself on anyone and that people can (and do) reject grace.
[/quote]

Amen