What I Learned In My Years In Catholic School

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062643' date='Sep 14 2006, 01:12 PM']
Considering the world is full of atheist, agnostic, pagan and God-rejecting little sprinkled babies....Catholic infant baptism just means a baby got wet.
[/quote]
Are you saying if those people had been baptized when they reached an "age of reason", they would never be atheistic, agnostic, pagan, or God-rejecting?

[Budge]

[quote]Are you saying if those people had been baptized when they reached an "age of reason", they would never be atheistic, agnostic, pagan, or God-rejecting?[/quote]

The baptism would mean something then because it would be a sign of their FAITH in Jesus Christ.

Making a baby wet, doesnt mean you make them a Christian.

Go to the public swimming pool then and start baptizing all the heathens....

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Baptism DOES mean something.

The meaning of baptism is not conferred by something that we can muster of our own power. The meaning (i.e., the GRACE) of baptism is conferred by the power of the Holy Spirit.


You didn't address the question of mentally handicapped people...

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062954' date='Sep 14 2006, 07:25 PM']
The baptism would mean something then because it would be a sign of their FAITH in Jesus Christ.

Making a baby wet, doesnt mean you make them a Christian.

Go to the public swimming pool then and start baptizing all the heathens....
[/quote]So Budge. Faith, which is a gift of grace, is gotten how?

[Budge]

[size=5]Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:[/size]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062185' date='Sep 13 2006, 08:23 PM']
That is one Catholic belief, that makes me scared for all of you.

You cant assume that you entered into a relationship with Christ just because you had some water splashed on you as a baby.

I know it didnt make me born again. I wouldnt know Jesus Christ until my 30s.

As a baby if that is when you were baptized--majority of Catholics baptized at infancy...it is impossible that you became born again.
[/quote]

OK, Budge, let me ask you a question.

Forgive me if I asked it previously.

If infant baptism is wrong, and you need to make a conscious decision to accept Christ, what happens to a two-month old infant who dies suddenly? Will he spend eternity in hell?

[Winchester]

I am disturbed by the notion that one must understand grace to receive it.

Isn't that a form of Gnosticism?

[Budge]

[quote]
If infant baptism is wrong, and you need to make a conscious decision to accept Christ, what happens to a two-month old infant who dies suddenly? Will he spend eternity in hell?[/quote]

No.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

How can a little innocent baby sin?

{Its Catholics that USED to teach that they were sent to LIMBO}

[Winchester]

Limbo was never dogmatic.

Original Sin--It's in the Bible--as opposed to Actual Sin.

[Budge]

[quote]Limbo was never dogmatic.[/quote]

How convienient.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1063156' date='Sep 14 2006, 10:14 PM']
[size=5]Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:[/size]


[/quote]


[size=5]James 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead. [/size]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1063175' date='Sep 15 2006, 12:43 AM']
How convienient.
[/quote]
It has nothing to do with convenience. There are dogmas, which are defined truths, then there are doctrines, which are not formally defined. Then there are other things, one of which is the category of theological opinions. Limbo is a theological opinion. Theological opinions are used as attempts to explain matters which are not a part of the faith, but are up for speculation. Therefore, at best, limbo was a commonly believed theological speculation.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1063164' date='Sep 14 2006, 11:28 PM']
How can a little innocent baby sin?
[/quote]

This is how:

[b]Romans 5:14 (KJV): Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. [/b]

As Winchester said, original sin. It's in the bible.

So, I ask you again, what happens to the baby if he/she dies before having a chance to be consciously born again?

Edited September 15, 2006 by Norseman82

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Budge,

more than a few of us are still awaiting a response as to the "necessity" you've imposed on the understanding of grace.

what about mentally handicapped people who cannot understand? should they be excluded from the Body of Christ? are they to be denied baptism?

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1062954' date='Sep 14 2006, 08:25 PM']
The baptism would mean something then because it would be a sign of their FAITH in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
Please quote the Bible where it says you have to reach an age of reason to be a Christian. What about those incapable of reasoning?

Ditto what Norseman82 said.

[Resurrexi]

[quote]Limbo was never dogmatic.[/quote]

Correction: Infants Limbo has never been dogmatic, but Limbo of the Fathers was.

[quote]Therefore, at best, limbo was a commonly believed theological speculation.[/quote]

Correction: Infants Limbo is a commonly believed theological speculation (it was never outlawed or made null, and is currently held by many people, including myself)

[Budge]

[quote]what about mentally handicapped people who cannot understand? should they be excluded from the Body of Christ? are they to be denied baptism?[/quote]

I leave that up to God. I dont think people who are incapable of understanding right from wrong, are capable of sins that would keep them out of heaven.

[Mercy me]

Budge, I am trying to figure out where you are coming from so please for give me if my question sounds dumb. In the Catholic church we believe that baptism makes a permanent shall we say imprint(this isn't the right word but I think it works) on your soul that marks you as a member of the body of Christ. Humans either pour water or immerse those to be baptized but God with His infinite power is really acting and incorporating that soul into His body and cleansing it of original sin.

What I don't understand is why protestants can be baptized so many times. Why do some protestants act like sometimes baptism doesn't work and they have to do it again. Do protestants believe that baptism only works when the recipient wants? The reason I ask is because you are not the only person that I have heard say that they were baptized more than once. Three people that I know who are Baptists said that the were baptized as teenagers and then again in their 30's like you. I know that you can't speak for them but perhaps you can explain the difference in belief.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1064565' date='Sep 16 2006, 10:06 PM']
Correction: Infants Limbo is a commonly believed theological speculation (it was never outlawed or made null, and is currently held by many people, including myself)
[/quote]
[quote]In recent years, the theological speculation of Limbo has fallen out of popularity amongst many lay Catholics and theologians alike. The Catechism of the Catholic Church entrusts the fate of infants and the unborn to the mercy of God:

CCC #1261 states:

As regards children who have died without baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God, who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children, which caused him to say, 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them' [Mark 10:14, cf. 1 Tim. 2:4], allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy baptism.

The International Theological Commission was asked by Pope John Paul II to consider the question of the fate of unbaptized babies. Under Pope Benedict XVI, the Commission recommended that the [b]theological hypothesis of Limbo be replaced by the more “compassionate” doctrine that all children who die do so “in the hope of eternal salvation”.[/b] A Catholic News Service article quotes Redemptorist Father Tony Kelly, an Australian member of the commission, as saying that turning away from the idea of limbo was part of "the development of the theological virtue of hope" and reflected "a different sense of God, focusing on his infinite love."[/quote]

Read the headlines and stories at the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Limbo_today"]bottom of the page[/url]. I wouldn't be placing bets on Limbo.

[Resurrexi]

It's still a theological speculation, just like it used to be and I'm free to believe in it no matter what you say :-P