Well We Never Gave Trent Her Crusade

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064862' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:44 AM']
John Paul already led his own crusade against communism, and he didn't need a single weapon to bring the enmy down.
[/quote]

Communist did not believe (in) God, was telling them to take over the world and kill all the Christians, and Jews, or anyone that is not in Islam. Jihadist do not want peace with us, they "worship death", they wish to kill or convert us all.

[Guest Rick777]

[quote]I disagree. The Church is never going to call for a crusade, but just hypothetically speaking here, I believe that if the Jihadists did something extreme (like assasinated the Pope) and the next Pope called for it, you would see a militia of millions eagerly awaiting orders. And there are plenty of Catholic countries who would be willing to supply arms.[/quote]

I don't think it would only be Catholic men either.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Rick777

[KnightofChrist]

Commies didnt get into killing themselves to kill others...

Edited September 17, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1064871' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:49 AM']
I disagree. The Church is never going to call for a crusade, but just hypothetically speaking here, I believe that if the Jihadists did something extreme (like assasinated the Pope) and the next Pope called for it, you would see a militia of [b]millions [/b] eagerly awaiting orders. And there are plenty of Catholic countries who would be willing to supply arms.
[/quote]
You think so? I guess I just don't consider any modern European governments as Catholic governments. Anyway, I see a modern crusade as nothing but Rwanda on an even more massive scale.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064847' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:34 AM']
Don John,

Your post passes over too many distinctions and nuance. For example, you cite an "infallible council" as if the fact that a Council dealt with something infallibly means everything it says is infallible. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Besides that, most Ecumenical Councils dealt with dogmatic questions, and also with discipline and governance of the Church, which is under no divine guarantee of effectiveness or surety.

Also, Pope Benedict recently addressed historical religious violence on the 20th anniversary of the gatherings in Assisi:
The Holy Father specifically separates the Catholic religion from religious wars which have taken place in its name, because war is always a civil matter, not of the Church, even when they were justified in the name of Catholicism. War is not part of the Church, let alone comparable to transubstantiation.
[/quote]


Wow the quotation you cite SOOOO does not say what you claim it does. It most certianly does not say that war is always a civil matter, and I defy you to show me anything from the church which says it is. I have already cited doculment which directly say otherwise.

And thank you I am well aware of the differance between disipline and dogma, however the 4th Laterian declared that the vow to go on Crusade was indeed a religious one and that renigging on such a vow was punishable by Excommunication and Interdict--- of course this is not withstanding the standard declaration that those who fullfilled the vow would recieve remission of their sins. I think this is a bit more than a mere issue of discipline.

But really my intent was not to argue the nuances of infallability but to show that your previous statment "The Church does not engage in war." was in fact incorrect the Church in the body of Ecuminical Councils does certianly engage in war.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064876' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:51 AM']
You think so? I guess I just don't consider any modern European governments as Catholic governments. Anyway, I see a modern crusade as nothing but Rwanda on an even more massive scale.
[/quote]


Even Austria's Muslim population is quickly growing....

It would be Rwanda all over again, neither side's soldiers would really be contained by their officers. Soldiers would do pretty much anything they wanted, killing civilians left and right because of paranoia. That being said, I would still fight if the Church called for a Crusade (I really doubt that would ever happen).

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064862' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:44 AM']
John Paul already led his own crusade against communism, and he didn't need a single weapon to bring the enmy down.
[/quote]


Thats a nice thought but it completly neglects the historical realities of the end of the Cold War, we were fighting all sorts of covert little wars with the Soviets, and we were bankrupting them with an arms race they could never keep up with, all the while beaming commercals into there territory to flaunt our material wealth and appeal to the citizens greed. JPII was only a very small part of the Fall of communism.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064876' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:51 AM']
Anyway, I see a modern crusade as nothing but Rwanda on an even more massive scale.
[/quote]
I agree in the sense that the Jihadists would like to exterminate us. We are on the defensive here and if they start killing Popes and nuking cities what do you expect to happen?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

It's like signing a death certificate for Christians in the middle east.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064895' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:02 AM']
It's like signing a death certificate for Christians in the middle east.
[/quote]

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1064889' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:57 AM']
Thats a nice thought but it completly neglects the historical realities of the end of the Cold War, we were fighting all sorts of covert little wars with the Soviets, and we were bankrupting them with an arms race they could never keep up with, all the while beaming commercals into there territory to flaunt our material wealth and appeal to the citizens greed. JPII was only a very small part of the Fall of communism.
[/quote]


I almost replied with the same arguments except:

Our Lady of Fatima said to pray for the conversion of Russia...and I am sure that JPII's prayers played a huge role in the fall of the Soviet Union. I believe that prayers of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (In union with Rome) as well as prayers of people everywhere were monumental. Prayer can not be overlooked; although the US WAS bankrupting the Soviet Union, this could have been a result of Christian prayer. The result of the election of 1980 was only possible because of huge Christian revivals. Oh, and Carter's presidential incompetence. I believe that US foreign policies during the 1980's were a direct result of Christian prayer and action.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1064878' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:53 AM']But really my intent was not to argue the nuances of infallability but to show that your previous statment "The Church does not engage in war." was in fact incorrect the Church in the body of Ecuminical Councils does certianly engage in war.[/quote]
Ok. What Pope and/or Bishop from these Ecumenical Councils strapped on a breastplate, took up a sword, and went out to chop heads?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='thedude' post='1064895' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:02 AM']
It's like signing a death certificate for Christians in the middle east.
[/quote]

The fact that we are Christians, middle east or anywhere, is like signing our death cerificates in the eyes of the Jihadist. Or a big "kill me" sign on our backs.

My point is this, Jihadist want us dead or converted, and not our peace. Jihadist can not be allowed to gain more power, they must be defeated. Now.

Edited September 17, 2006 by KnightofChrist

[Era Might]

The Pope's role in the fall of communism, in fact, was huge.

[quote]Lech Walesa, founder of the Solidarity movement that toppled communism in Poland in 1989-90, recalled the power of John Paul's visit to Warsaw in 1979. It was the first to his homeland after becoming pope a year earlier, and he ended Mass with a prayer for the Holy Spirit to "renew the face of the Earth," words that became a rallying cry.

"We know what the pope has achieved. Fifty percent of the collapse of communism is his doing," Walesa told The Associated Press on Friday. "More than one year after he spoke these words, we were able to organize 10 million people for strikes, protests and negotiations.

[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152246,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152246,00.html[/url][/quote]

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064900' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:06 AM']
Ok. What Pope and/or Bishop from these Ecumenical Councils strapped on a breastplate, took up a sword, and went out to chop heads?
[/quote]


There was a Pope who did lead a army into battle strapped with a breatplate and took up a sword, and protected and defended Christendom. Anyone recall his name? Are there more Popes who did the same?

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064905' date='Sep 17 2006, 02:11 AM']
The Pope's role in the fall of communism, in fact, was huge.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you Era, on this. So was Reagan's role... and Thatcher's.

[Akalyte]

[img]http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/julius2.jpg[/img]

Pope Julius II

1443-1513


Born Giuliano Della Rovere, Julius was the nephew of Pope Sixtus IV, who built the Sistine Chapel. Although his relationship to Sixtus helped his early career, he was forced to flee Italy to avoid assassination attempts ordered by Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI), and stayed in exile for ten years before Borgia's death made it possible for him to return.

As pope, Julius became one of the most powerful rulers of the Renaissance, and he was more concerned with political matters than theological ones. He became known as "the warrior pope" and il papa terribile, and worked hard to restore and preserve the Papal States and led military efforts to hold off the encroaching forces of France. When defecting cardinals threatened another schism, he called the Fifth Lateran Council, and overturned another military coup with the help of Swiss troops.

Though he was enormously successful in keeping Italy together politically and militarily, Julius is perhaps best known as a patron of the arts. He is particularly remembered for his patronage of Raphael, who painted his private rooms at the Vatican, and Michelangelo, who completed the Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel barely a year before the pope's death.

[OLAM Dad]

[quote name='Eutychus' post='1064609' date='Sep 16 2006, 11:14 PM']
Go to Saudi Arabia, stand on a street, say Jesus Christ outloud.

You will be in jail within the hour.
[/quote]
I've been there and done that.

Didn't go to jail.

[Budge]

[quote]
I've been there and done that.

Didn't go to jail.[/quote]

Must not have been any cops around.

[url="http://washingtontimes.com/world/20051114-015138-3548r.htm"]FLOGGING FOR DISCUSSING THE BIBLE[/url]
[quote]
Bibles found in the possession of visitors to Saudi Arabia are routinely confiscated by customs officials, and in some cases copies allegedly have been put through a paper shredder, according to religious rights campaigners.

Reports from the Islamic world of the abuse of Bibles and other items important to Christians emerge from time to time, but generally have little impact - in contrast to the wave of Muslim anger sparked by a Newsweek report, since retracted, of Koran desecration by the U.S. military.

"The Muslims respect the Koran far more than Christians respect the Bible," says Danny Nalliah, a Sri Lankan-born evangelical pastor now based in Australia.

During the 1990s, Nalliah spent two years in Saudi Arabia, where he was deeply involved with the underground church.

"It's a very well-known fact that if you have a Bible at customs when you enter the airport, and if they find the Bible, that the Bible is taken and put in the shredder," he said in an interview this week.
[size=5]
"If you have more than one Bible you will be taken into custody, and if you have a quantity of Bibles you will be given 70 lashes for sure - you could even be executed."[/size][/quote]

[url="http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/082943.php"]LINK[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1064897' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:04 AM']
I almost replied with the same arguments except:

Our Lady of Fatima said to pray for the conversion of Russia...and I am sure that JPII's prayers played a huge role in the fall of the Soviet Union. I believe that prayers of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (In union with Rome) as well as prayers of people everywhere were monumental. Prayer can not be overlooked; although the US WAS bankrupting the Soviet Union, this could have been a result of Christian prayer. The result of the election of 1980 was only possible because of huge Christian revivals. Oh, and Carter's presidential incompetence. I believe that US foreign policies during the 1980's were a direct result of Christian prayer and action.
[/quote]
The Ukrainian Catholic Church is in union with Rome , not the Ukrainian Orthodox, but aside from that I don't think we disagree too much. I do not dismiss the power of prayer or JPII's role in the Fall of the Soviet Union, but to say that he defeated them "without firing a shot" is simply dishonest a great deal of blood was shed all over the world to defeat the Communist, in the 80"s as well, and Regans policy of spending them into destruction cannot be unplayed. Again I do not dismiss prayer, I simply see that God works within the world the Soviet Unions collapse was Wonderful in the true since of the word, but it was not a Miracle.

[Era Might]

St. Thomas addressed clerics engaging in violence:

[quote]Now warlike pursuits are altogether incompatible with the duties of a bishop and a cleric, for two reasons. The first reason is a general one, because, to wit, warlike pursuits are full of unrest, so that they hinder the mind very much from the contemplation of Divine things, the praise of God, and prayers for the people, which belong to the duties of a cleric. Wherefore just as commercial enterprises are forbidden to clerics, because they unsettle the mind too much, so too are warlike pursuits, according to 2 Tim. 2:4: "No man being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular business." The second reason is a special one, because, to wit, all the clerical Orders are directed to the ministry of the altar, on which the Passion of Christ is represented sacramentally, according to 1 Cor. 11:26: "As often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until He come." Wherefore it is unbecoming for them to slay or shed blood, and it is more fitting that they should be ready to shed their own blood for Christ, so as to imitate in deed what they portray in their ministry. For this reason it has been decreed that those who shed blood, even without sin, become irregular. Now no man who has a certain duty to perform, can lawfully do that which renders him unfit for that duty. Wherefore it is altogether unlawful for clerics to fight, because war is directed to the shedding of blood.

--Summa Theologica, Second Part of the Second Part, Question 40

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304002.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/304002.htm[/url][/quote]

Edited September 17, 2006 by Era Might