Well We Never Gave Trent Her Crusade

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1064900' date='Sep 17 2006, 03:06 AM']
Ok. What Pope and/or Bishop from these Ecumenical Councils strapped on a breastplate, took up a sword, and went out to chop heads?
[/quote]


You want a list of popes and bishops that physically fought. Okay, I'll get you one soon enough. Traditionally bishops and priest used maces or clubs, not swords. Swords draw blood, maces and clubs technically speaking, do not.

Off the top of my head Bishop Odo , and Pope Julius II both physically fought, though they fought other Christians. Bishop Odo rallied the Normans at Hastings and is even pictured on the Bayeux tapestry fighting. If you want a list of Bishops known to fight I will have to get back to you, I have to write a paper.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1065087' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:08 PM']
St. Thomas addressed clerics engaging in violence:
[/quote]


While I love Thomas Aquinus He is not "The Church" and frankly niether are Clerics, Though they have fought, they Church has been directed to fight by the Magestirum, saying that this is not " The Church engauging in war" is like saying the US doesn't engage in War because the President doesn't hop in a fighter jet with the Speaker of the house as his wing man and go fight.

[Era Might]

The Bishop of Rome was a civil ruler, and as such, had a role in the defense of civil society, including military force.

Contrary to what you are claiming, that was NEVER confused with the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. This confusion of divine power and temporal power has been redressed by the Church long since, which is why the Second Vatican Council, and subsequent Roman Pontiffs, have emphasized the rightful autonomy of the civil and religious spheres.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Budge]

The problem with Rome is a HISTORY of following man's ways--WAR, POWER TRIPS, CORRUPTION, rather then going out and preaching the gospel. If all the energy had been given to actually preaching the gospel in Muslim lands instead of trying to conquer them and play kumbuyah, the world may be in a better place.

Even this talk of a new crusade sickens me, like thats going to fix anything for the better in the era of bombs that can destroy the world 10 times over. We are a little past the time of the knights guys....think about it. What is violence going to do but bolster the Muslims more into a world war?

But sigh...I know whats going to happen, this world is going to get worse, and Jesus Himself told us this...

[size=4]Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/size]

Catholics you better take your hope out of this world and its false leaders and religious dictators, and put it in Jesus Christ.

[Era Might]

Ah, forget it. It's Sunday.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Era Might

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1065113' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:37 PM']
Blessed be the name of the Lord.
[/quote]


On this we can and do agree.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='Budge' post='1065103' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:24 PM']
The problem with Rome is a HISTORY of following man's ways--WAR, POWER TRIPS, CORRUPTION, rather then going out and preaching the gospel. If all the energy had been given to actually preaching the gospel in Muslim lands instead of trying to conquer them and play kumbuyah, the world may be in a better place.

Even this talk of a new crusade sickens me, like thats going to fix anything for the better in the era of bombs that can destroy the world 10 times over. We are a little past the time of the knights guys....think about it. What is violence going to do but bolster the Muslims more into a world war?

But sigh...I know whats going to happen, this world is going to get worse, and Jesus Himself told us this...

[size=4]Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/size]

Catholics you better take your hope out of this world and its false leaders and religious dictators, and put it in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]

It is in Jesus Christ. At least it should be. Everything leads to Christ in our Church..

[Budge]

The interfaith movement doesnt.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1065103' date='Sep 17 2006, 01:24 PM']
The problem with Rome is a HISTORY of following man's ways--WAR, POWER TRIPS, CORRUPTION, rather then going out and preaching the gospel. If all the energy had been given to actually preaching the gospel in Muslim lands instead of trying to conquer them and play kumbuyah, the world may be in a better place.

Even this talk of a new crusade sickens me, like thats going to fix anything for the better in the era of bombs that can destroy the world 10 times over. We are a little past the time of the knights guys....think about it. What is violence going to do but bolster the Muslims more into a world war?

But sigh...I know whats going to happen, this world is going to get worse, and Jesus Himself told us this...

[size=4]Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.[/size]

Catholics you better take your hope out of this world and its false leaders and religious dictators, and put it in Jesus Christ.
[/quote]
Well, honestly, how long have evanglical/pentecostals been around? A couple of centuries?
The first couple of centuries were pretty good for us, too.
Once your brand gets out of diapers, get back to me.

[Budge]

According to the catholic church's "version" of history.

Christians have always been around.

[Winchester]

I wasn't talking about Christians, I was talking about evangelicals/pentecostals.

[Socrates]

Don John!
Where you been, brother?

Plenty of infidels around here in need of a good hammering!

[FerociousBadger]

[img]http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2768/1150320684048bc2.gif[/img]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Ferocious Badger' post='1065594' date='Sep 17 2006, 10:52 PM']
[img]http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/2768/1150320684048bc2.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Now that's funny, I don't care who you are.

[Akalyte]

I've been ready for a Crusade, I didnt write those two songs for nothin'!

[quote name='Socrates' post='1065475' date='Sep 17 2006, 09:15 PM']
Don John!
Where you been, brother?

Plenty of infidels around here in need of a good hammering!
[/quote]


Yeah I've missed ya Don John!!

[Don John of Austria]

Akalyte and Socrates

Thank you for your kind words, I'll try and be around a bit more often, I have just been absurdly busy between work and family and Grad school. Anyway, I have noticed after 4 or 5 years that phatmass can seem to take a lot of time, I tend to not be willing to let things go--- not that you guys ever would have seen that part of me . Anyway< I will try to stop buy more often but I can't promis much till spring.

[ironman]

Pray Globally---Act Locally
How about doing a couple of rosaries right now, instead of wasting all this time arguing<

[Don John of Austria]

I really haven't had much time to compose a list of fighting bishops but this should do as a start.


St. Emilian of Autun (Bishop of Autun) -- 8th century France

Absalon bishop of Roskilde, later Archbishop of Lund and
Sweyn, bishop of Aarhus, both 12th century Danish Bishops.

Anthony Bek Bishop of Durham, late 13th and early 14th century England

Sir Henry Spenser, Bishop of Norwich 14th century

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1066164' date='Sep 18 2006, 05:45 PM']
I really haven't had much time to compose a list of fighting bishops but this should do as a start.
St. Emilian of Autun (Bishop of Autun) -- 8th century France

Absalon bishop of Roskilde, later Archbishop of Lund and
Sweyn, bishop of Aarhus, both 12th century Danish Bishops.

Anthony Bek Bishop of Durham, late 13th and early 14th century England

Sir Henry Spenser, Bishop of Norwich 14th century
[/quote]


Oh I forgot to mention St. Emilian was killed in battle while fighting the Mohammedians. And before he took the sword he was not that remarkable a man, it was is sacrifices on the battlefield and acceptance of death with courage and honor which earned him a cult of veneration. At his last battle, before the walls of his city, he cried out" Lord in to Thy hands I commend my spirit", and charged into the melee. Hardly a pacifist pope.

[Akalyte]

I'm not going to lie, im very angry at the Muslims (not just terrorists)I'm not making any distinctions, because there are none). They have been waging these jihad's since their birth.

They complain about the crusades, the Crusades were not on the offensive, they were on the defensive. Islam was trying to take over all the Christian and Jewish lands.

I dont plan on being peaceful if a Muslim comes near me. He/she will hear it.