Looking For Bible Quote

[Budge]

[quote]Either the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Christ or it is not.[/quote]

One of us is right and one is wrong.

Here is a book for you to read.

[img]http://www.hartlandpublications.com/Rgbre1.jpg[/img]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079697' date='Sep 29 2006, 07:54 PM']
Real unity in Jesus Christ allows a person to be an individual.

Here I'll explain it, with the exception of three individuals, I feel like I am talking to the same person over and over on this message board. [/quote]
It sounds like one person because we're all speaking of the same Truth. There is only one Truth, not many truths based on individuality.

Just because we share the one Truth in one Faith in one Church doesn't mean we lose individuality. Some people like chocolate ice cream. Some like vanilla. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=57862&hl=deodorant"]Some like Axe, and some like Old Spice[/url].

[quote]I always wonder where more liberal Catholics {there numbers are far higher in the pews then they are in the online Catholic world} and Sedevancantists are on boards like these, it seems they get run off faster then any Fundie Christians.[/quote]
Maybe because those people possess something you do not seem to possess, the ability to re-examine your presumptions. They are working to rectify what they learn here with what they've learned elsewhere. They do not flat out deny what they are hearing.

Most important of all, they seek to understand or maybe in some cases reform the Church from within and not without as you have chosen to do.

I read this thread and failed to see your Bible references. Could you please reproduce them?

[quote name='Budge' post='1079712' date='Sep 29 2006, 08:12 PM']
One of us is right and one is wrong.

Here is a book for you to read.

[img]http://www.hartlandpublications.com/Rgbre1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Here is a book for you to read.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Rome-Sweet-Home-Journey-Catholicism/dp/0898704782/sr=8-1/qid=1159575738/ref=sr_1_1/103-9387642-5415843?ie=UTF8&s=books"][img]http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0898704782.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg[/img][/url]

[Budge]

[quote]
Maybe because those people possess something you do not seem to possess, the ability to re-examine your presumptions. They are working to rectify what they learn here with what they've learned elsewhere. They do not flat out deny what they are hearing.[/quote]

I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture and in Luke 9 the apostles even debate among themselves who shall be the greatest and Jesus basically answers none of you.

The problem here is I am not dealing with those who are seeking who examine their faith, but ones who have their minds already made up immired totally in slogans and the decision before we even begin...THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

[Aloysius]

I'll give you that: if the Eucharist is not truly and substantially Jesus Christ, then every faithful Catholic in the world is an idolater.

Of course, I believe in a just God who would more punish those who tricked every Catholic into believing this than every Catholic... for when they worship the Eucharist they are attempting to worship Christ and God sees the interior motivations of every man and through that renders judgement.

But yes, it all hinges on the Real Presence. If Jesus was not speaking literally (He sure did make it easily enough interpreted that way, though) then the Eucharist is idolatry. I have always said that, go back to my way earlier posts you'll find it.

Of course, I believe Jesus to have been speaking literally, and so I believe our worship of Jesus in the Eucharist is not idolatry.

You see all of our images and all of our sacraments as reversions back to old pagan ways.. but our understanding of them reveals (at least from an anthropological perspective) an inversion of the old ways. But if you our not willing to first learn our beliefs and our motivations on our own terms, then your sinful arrogance, pride, and obstinance of heart will lead you straight to hell where you can worship the demon who you call "christ" who is really just your own concoction of a deity which agrees with all of your politics and all of your opinions and everything you want to be true but not much which comes from outside of yourself.

You are probably one of the first people I've met from other Christian denominations who I can feel comfortable calling "non-Christian" and whose concept of "christ" I can feel comfortable in calling a demon.

And of course you will say I simply attempt to demonize your side and pull out your mistakes in catholic apologetics quote (pot calling the kettle black, of course)... but even other protestants recognize all of the hate which you get from your father, who is satan. he has tricked you into a path which is leading you straight to hell under the prideful pretense that you're one of the only ones saved.

[quote name='Budge' post='1079721' date='Sep 29 2006, 09:27 PM']
I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture and in Luke 9 the apostles even debate among themselves who shall be the greatest and Jesus basically answers none of you.

The problem here is I am not dealing with those who are seeking who examine their faith, but ones who have their minds already made up immired totally in slogans and the decision before we even begin...THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ALWAYS RIGHT.
[/quote]
pot calling the kettle black, anyone? this is a typical (anthropologically speaking) tactic of every culture's ethnocentricity throughout the world throughout time... except one: the unique Christian Western culture which is self-penitential and humble. But every other culture throughout the whole world... most notably the arab islamic culture, will say "you have to be open to our truth" and "you should stop blinding yourself to our truth" but will never ever even for a moment take the position "perhaps I could be wrong, let me hear your side out and then tell you why I think you are not"... phrases which have arisen unique to our culture are things such as "for the sake of argument..." and "let's assume for a moment that you're right..." et cetera... and these are the things which make our point of view in line with the Eternal Logos... Reason itself... because it is reasonable to be humble and hear the other side out... but not you, Budge.

I am quite willing to listen to New Reformation et al. and discuss with them and give their arguments the benefit of the doubt, because they hold this uniquely western reasonable Christian humble idea. but not you, because, like I said, your father is the father of lies.

[Budge]

[quote]You see all of our images and all of our sacraments as reversions back to old pagan ways.. but our understanding of them reveals (at least from an anthropological perspective) an inversion of the old ways. But if you our not willing to first learn our beliefs and our motivations on our own terms, then your sinful arrogance, pride, and obstinance of heart [b]will lead you straight to hell where you can worship the demon who you call "christ"[/b] who is really just your own concoction of a deity which agrees with all of your politics and all of your opinions and everything you want to be true but not much which comes from outside of yourself.

You are probably one of the first people I've met from other Christian denominations who [b]I can feel comfortable calling "non-Christian" and whose concept of "christ" I can feel comfortable in calling a demon.[/b]
[/quote]

I agree with you in that....

We do worship a different 'Jesus' and from the exchanges here, I know you reject the Jesus Christ I worship and His Word.

You can rant and rave against me but it just makes me sad for you.















[quote]this is a typical (anthropologically speaking) [b]tactic of every culture's ethnocentricity throughout the world throughout time... except one:[/b] the unique Christian Western culture which is self-penitential and humble. But every other culture throughout the whole world... most notably the arab islamic culture, will say "you have to be open to our truth" and "you should stop blinding yourself to our truth" but will never ever even for a moment take the position [b]"perhaps I could be wrong, let me hear your side out and then tell you why I think you are not"... phrases[/b][/quote]

You have just preached Multiculturalism 101...which is rooted in moral relativism and basically says the values of all cultures are equal, and there is different truths for different people.

Multiculturism is adverse to the Christian gospel.

[url="http://logosresourcepages.org/OurTimes/multiculturalism.htm"]Multiculturalism’s Clandestine War Against Christianity #1[/url]

[Aloysius]

You insisted, we worship different jesuses. Yours is completely and totally subject to your own interpretations; mine I follow completely from sources I find outside of myself: from humble attention to those who came before in the long history of my historical and incarnational faith

your faith is ahistoric, and though incarnational in word not incarnational in practice... it does not get the point that Christ came in the Flesh to give all His followers to oppurtunity to know Him through the physical world.. Christ came in the Flesh

You say I rant and rave? It is you who rant and rave, I finally merely responded by agreeing with you: the Jesus Christ of paranoia, arrogance, politics, injustice, and hatred you describe is not the Jesus Christ who I worship. You have been deceived by a demon.

A conterfeit church may arise in the end times... but it sure won't be the church that has been there throughout the entire incarnational history of the Church.

True Christianity is the only real historical religion because of its belief in the incarnation. You have returned to a non-historical religion with no more merits than the old village religions which each produced their own god in the hindu religion. they produced their own gods which could represent them in all their opinions and political views.

[quote name='Budge' post='1079728' date='Sep 29 2006, 09:42 PM']
I agree with you in that....

We do worship a different 'Jesus' and from the exchanges here, I know you reject the Jesus Christ I worship and His Word.

You can rant and rave against me but it just makes me sad for you.


You have just preached Multiculturalism 101...which is rooted in moral relativism and basically says the values of all cultures are equal, and there is different truths for different people.

Multiculturism is adverse to the Christian gospel.

[url="http://logosresourcepages.org/OurTimes/multiculturalism.htm"]Multiculturalism’s Clandestine War Against Christianity #1[/url]
[/quote]
but as a matter of fact, I did not preach moral relativism, or say that all cultures are equal. in fact, I was just describing an aspect of our culture which I believe is morally superior to all other cultures: namely that even when it loses its Christian faith it retains its old ideas of Christian humility. You follow the old world system of things, where any humility on the part of a culture is a sign of weakness, but when we are weak, then we are strong. This is the greatest strength of our culture, and it is deeply rooted in our Christian values: that though we firmly believe from the start of the argument to the end of an argument that we are absolutely positively correct, we have the amazing capacity that no other culture in history has had to say "hold on a second, let me bracket that off, learn what you say on its own terms, stop the argument for a second and for its sake study yours as if you are right... but hear me out on what I say is right.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1078276' date='Sep 28 2006, 05:53 PM']
[size=2]Pr 25:2
¶ It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter[/size]

God has hidden the truth from the unwise...

john 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Anyhow none of you understand what Sola Scripture really is...

you mean it to say the BIBLE is EVERYTHING, we mean it to say that the BIBLE IS SUFFICIENT.
[size=2][u][b]
The church is not to judge the bible, but the bible the church.[/b][/u][/size]

Just another Strawman floated by Catholics.
[/quote]
I responded to this assertion with the following:


[quote name='Winchester' post='1078282' date='Sep 28 2006, 05:55 PM']
I believe the Bible is sufficient. I believe that using the Bible alone that I can prove the validity of the Catholic Church.

I believe that using the Bible alone I can prove the divinity of Christ and the Ressurection.

It is sufficient.

But it is not alone.
[/quote]

Sola Scriptura rejects two other things Catholics see as parts of Christ's instruments for teaching and protecting the Faith. I don't get where your scripture passages say to use only the Bible.
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:15
It doesn't have to be written to be proper teaching.

There was an oral tradition before Christ, and Matthew speaks of a prophecy that wasn't mentioned in the OT, but was accepted (at least by an Apostle) as prophecy. I believe the only prophecies about Christ acceptable to men of God would be from God. In other words, the prophets would not be inspired by demons. Draw from this that not every important theological point (if one considers legitimate prophecies about Christ important) must be in Scripture.

[Socrates]

Geez, Budge. All Winchester asked for here was one single little Bible quote saying that the Bible alone was to be used.

We're still waiting for that quote.

You have dozens of other threads in which to rant and rave against the Catholic Church, and advertize anti-Catholic books.
We just want the quote here.

[Winchester]

Thank you for your kind assistance

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079721' date='Sep 29 2006, 07:27 PM']
I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture
[/quote]
The name "Peter" means "Rock."
Peter (formerly Simon) is refered to as Peter (Rock) ever since Christ formally gave him this name.

[quote]Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock[/quote]
So Jesus said Peter was God??
Guess we Christians have been worshipping the wrong guy, then.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Amazing what happens when people chuck the Bible over board for oral traditions and old wives tales.[/quote]

The Jewish faith has a strong oral tradition in the Mishnah and the Gemara, the major rabbinical commentaries on Scripture. This is a tradition that Jesus Himself would have been very familiar with. He never condemnded it - he capitalised on it. When he taught in the temple courts, he was participating in it and propagating it, offering his own commentaries and interpretations.

Catholicism has continued this sacred oral tradition, which was present from the beginnings of Judaism and rooted in the fertile soil of the Torah itself. Protestantism has lost that tradition and is floating adrift from the roots of the faith.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079668' date='Sep 29 2006, 07:31 PM']
{I already provided Bible verses}
[/quote]No, you didn't provide any relevant bible verses. You provided a couple of bible verses which I read and interpreted every logical way I could think of. Even so, I could not find how they could even imply what we were asking you to provide. I posted this, and you neglected to respond. You still neglect to respond, and I doubt you will respond even to this.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1079721' date='Sep 29 2006, 08:27 PM']
I dont think so, I see a lot of slogans.

"Peter is the Rock and was made Pope" even though Christians here have shown that God is referred to as the Rock, that Peter never claimed this title for himself in Scripture and in Luke 9 the apostles even debate among themselves who shall be the greatest and Jesus basically answers none of you.[/quote]
Peter, or Kepha in Jesus' Aramaic language, means rock. Peter never claimed the title because it was given to him by Jesus. Jesus said in Matt 16:18, "And so I say to you, you are [Kepha] and upon this [kepha] I will build my Church..."

Peter is the only disciple to receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven from Jesus. Keys are an ancient symbol of power and authority alluded to a number of times in Scripture (Rev 1:18, Rev 20:1, Isaiah 22:22.) Peter's original name was Simon, which in Hebrew means "hearkening and listening". And Simon was listening when Jesus changed his name to Kepha, "a stone". Keep in mind that name changes in Bible meant a change in vocation. Abram to Abraham (Gen 17:5). Jacob to Israel (Gen 35:10). The tribes of Israel named after his 12 sons (Gen 35:22-26, Num 1:1-54).

In Luke 9, the apostles were acting vainly. They are worried about who will be greatest just after Jesus told them he was going to be handed over. Jesus wisely took the opportunity to teach them about humility by picking up a child.

Greatness or humility are not indicators of authority. They do not validate or justify authority. Authority is granted. Jesus granted Peter the authority to build His church. As leader of the Catholic Church, it's important all popes exercise their authority with humility. This is the importance of scripture you reference.

[quote]The problem here is I am not dealing with those who are seeking who examine their faith, but ones who have their minds already made up immired totally in slogans and the decision before we even begin...THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ALWAYS RIGHT.[/quote]
It can appear as slogans if you are hearing the same counter-arguments over and over. The reason why you are hearing the same counter-arguments over and over is two fold: 1) The Truth never changes. 2) The Church has been answering critics for 2,000 years. Catholics who understand apologetics have heard just about every argument against the Church. You are treading on ground many have taken before. Some of the Church's best Catholics are people are converts who once walked the same trail you are walking now. A few of them have books documenting where they once were and how they came home to the Catholic Church.

Is the Catholic Church always right? In matters of faith, yes. Otherwise, the gate of Hell have prevailed against it. Does this mean the Catholic Church is impeccable? Not at all. It is run by humans who can fail.

In regards to oral tradition, if we didn't have oral tradition, we wouldn't have a Bible.

[Winchester]

Budge, are you missing my post or should I give up because you don't have an answer?

[cmotherofpirl]

bump

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1080222' date='Sep 30 2006, 02:24 PM']
Budge, are you missing my post or should I give up because you don't have an answer?
[/quote]
Don't give up...declare victory.

Heck, I'll do it.

Winchester wins by default.

The end.

[Budge]

[quote]Scriptures Or Magisterium? - A False Dilemma

Question: Have you ever wanted to be so sure about something that it stopped you in your tracks? Kind of like a deer staring into the lights of an oncoming vehicle. I am in that sort of predicament. On the one hand I have the Scriptures which I read from on a daily basis and the Spirit of God to lead me. On the other hand I have this Church that basically says, "Just do what I say." I am at a standstill. The one thing that really get to the crux of the whole issue is authority. Did Christ give the church the ultimate authority in all matters of doctrine and faith, or is it his will that each one of us should be led by the Spirit of God?

Answer: You’re struggling between two choices: on one hand is the Catholic claim to ultimate authority, on the other, the leading of the Holy Spirit by the Scriptures.

This, however, is a false dilemma. For church authority and private judgement are not enemies, and you do not have to choose one and oppose the other. The alternative to the Roman claim to ultimate and infallible authority (basically, "believe and do whatever the magisterium says" is not the leading of the Holy Spirit and private interpretations of the Scriptures.

Many people hold this false notion that Protestantism champions the "me-Bible-only" Lone Ranger mentality, which unfortunately is so common among us. This problem is certainly not confined to Evangelical circles. The same phenomenon is also seen among Catholics, in which case the formula changes to "me-my-opinion " irrespective of what the Church officially teaches. The individualistic attitude is not what we find in the New Testament churches!

The Head of the Church commissions pastors to preach and teach and explain the Word. Christ gives gifts to the church, including pastors and teachers, whose job is it to teach and preach (cf Ephesians 4:11ff). "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (2 Timothy 4:2). "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority" (Titus 2:15). The picture which we don't find in the New Testament is of a “church” made up of autonomous self-sufficient individualistic Christians who do not see the need of teachers because they have the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

The individual Christian is not alone in his endeavor to understand and mature in the Word of God. The Lord gives us the service of pastors and teachers to help us understand His Word, and we will be impoverished if we ignore this God-given plan for His children. He calls Christians to join in with other brothers and sisters in local assemblies to be spiritually fed, supervised and ruled by elders (also known as pastor or bishops, 1 Peter 5:1,2; 1 Tim 5:17; Hebrews 13:7)

Two objections immediately comes to my mind:

1. How can evangelical pastors have any authority since they are not infallible?
2. If I submit to the teaching ministry of the church, does that mean that I loose my right to private judgement?

To the first statement, I reply: It is not necessary for someone to be infallible to be authoritative. Our governments possess authority, but they are not infallible! As a father you have authority over your children to raise them up in the counsel and admonition of the Lord, yet, as you are painfully aware, you are a fallible human being. You may make mistakes, probably you have already committed quite a few, and yet you're still the authoritative head of the family. What if your children say, "Our dad is not infallible, therefore he has no real authority, therefore we will not submit to him." Have you ever thought like that vis-à-vis the evangelical pastors?

The very claim to infallibility is evidently false. It is a novel and proud invention of the modern Roman Catholic Church. Ironically, a popular Roman Catholic catechism in the middle of the nineteenth century by the Rev Stephen Keenan denied the infallibility of the Pope:

Question: Must not Catholics believe the Pope in himself to be infallible?
Answer: This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it be received and enforced by the teaching body; that is, by the bishops of the Church. (Keenan's Controversial Catechism, on Protestantism Refuted and Catholicism Establish, by the Rev. Stephen Keenan, Second Edition revised and enlarged, published in 1851 by C. Dolman, 13 South Hanover Street, Edinburgh; and 61, New Bond Street, London).

What was then an alleged “Protestant invention” was soon declared to be a dogma by Vatican I and claimed to be a teaching “received from the beginning of the Christian faith”!

Compare the proud claim of infallible papal authority to the attitude of a Christian pastor. He is aware of the God-given authority to preach the Word (Titus 2:15); yet he is also painfully aware of his own weakness. He has taken the warning seriously, “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things” (James 3:1,2). The faithful pastor studies to show himself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth. Do not hold it against him that he is humble enough to admit his fallibility.

What then of the notion of private judgement? Does the individual Christian forfeit his privilege to study the Scriptures and to exercise discernment when he submits to the pastoral and teaching ministry of the church? No, not at all. On the contrary, the Lord and His apostles constantly reasoned with the people from the Scriptures. The apostles did not merely say, “Believe and obey what we’re teaching because we are apostles.” The method they employed, as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and the epistles, is based on persuasion by reasonable argument and appeal to the Scriptures.

This implies that it is not expected of the disciples to be blind followers of their leaders. Christian pastors are eager to demonstrate that the Christian faith is rooted in the Holy Scriptures. At the same time, disciples should exercise discernment, testing all things, searching the Scriptures daily to see that the things taught by their pastors are true.

[size=2][b]I am thankful for those who have taught me the Christian faith through their sermons and writings, and especially for taking me to the Scriptures, so that ultimately my faith would rest on the solid rock of the Word of God.

The real choice is between one form of church authority and another. On the one hand, we have the false claim of infallible authority by the leaders of the Roman Church. They refuse to be accountable to the church in general because they say that ordinary Christians cannot rightly interpret the Bible. On the other hand, Christian pastors exercise teaching authority while admitting that they too are liable to make mistakes. They encourage ordinary Christians to test all things, including their teaching, and to study the scriptures for themselves.

The end result is this. The Catholic ultimately rests on the authority of the Vatican leaders. “I believe because the Church teaches so and so.” Having been convinced that the teaching of the church is biblical, the Evangelical Christian says, “I believe because the Bible teaches so and so.[/b][/size]”[/quote]

[url="http://www.justforcatholics.org/a176.htm"]LINK[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

Interesting that you never provided the quote asked for.
when are you going to?

or when will you finally admit it doesn't exist?

[Budge]

Another straw man, wanting me to find an exact sentence in the Bible, so you all can continue your unbelief in scripture.

Where does Scripture have a Pope mentioned?

It doesnt.

Where does Scripture mention Purgatory?

It doesnt.

Goes both ways.....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1080778' date='Oct 1 2006, 02:17 PM']
Another straw man, wanting me to find an exact sentence in the Bible, so you all can continue your unbelief in scripture.

Where does Scripture have a Pope mentioned?

It doesnt.

Where does Scripture mention Purgatory?

It doesnt.

Goes both ways.....
[/quote]
Let's play that game that's so popular in Spanish textbooks: logico o ilogico?

Ilogico!

You see, your points on not finding the pope or purgatory explicitly mentioned mean nothing to us because, unlike you, we don't believe in Sola Scriptura. We're perfectly fine with having things in seminal form in the Scriptures and not completely and explicity drawn out. However, since you, who aren't okay with that, seem to be coming up short on finding a verse (which, according to your own theology, you need), then your theology is self-defeating.

You lose Budge. Sorry.