How St. Teresa Led Me Away From God As A Child.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Back on topic, ladies and gentlemen.

[Budge]

You all forget when I read this book, I LIKED ST. Terese, the girl that wrote it, I felt bad for her that she had been taught wrong things about God.

Also it does no favors for the sick and disabled to be taught it is good to suffer. [suffering for their own salvation] That is not a God a sick or disabled person can run to for comfort and solace. That is not what the God of the Bible teaches.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093055' date='Oct 16 2006, 12:29 PM']
You all forget when I read this book, I LIKED ST. Terese, the girl that wrote it, I felt bad for her that she had been taught wrong things about God.

Also it does no favors for the sick and disabled to be taught it is good to suffer. [suffering for their own salvation] That is not a God a sick or disabled person can run to for comfort and solace. That is not what the God of the Bible teaches.
[/quote]
I guess when Jesus got back to Heaven, he must have given God a piece of His mind for letting Jesus suffer while He was on earth. LOL

It certainly seems you misinterpreted the entire book, Budge. But I must admit, I didn't read it and am not about to read it either. I feel bad that you were taught the wrong things about God and confuse a human's attitude about suffering as being God's attitude.

[Budge]

Jesus suffered and died for our sins, conquering sin and death, so people could be saved eternal suffering in hell.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093085' date='Oct 16 2006, 01:23 PM']
Jesus suffered and died for our sins, conquering sin and death, so people could be saved eternal suffering in hell.
[/quote]
Okay...
So I my choices are:
A. I get Faith by Grace and I'm "saved" and I will have Grace that makes me do good works. That also means if I was born and lived in the Amazon 150 years ago, I was born to burn in hell. Some people get the opportunity to be saved, others don't. You only know if you do Good Things.

B. I get Faith by unearned Grace and that's the begininning of a Faith Journey where I will get Graces through out life and I can either participate with Grace and have salvation, or I can reject these Graces and scoot down to Hell. I'm also required to nurture that Seed of Faith to keep weeds from choking it out or removing rocks so that it can grow in soil.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093055' date='Oct 16 2006, 02:29 PM']You all forget when I read this book, I LIKED ST. Terese, the girl that wrote it, I felt bad for her that she had been taught wrong things about God.

Also it does no favors for the sick and disabled to be taught it is good to suffer. [suffering for their own salvation] That is not a God a sick or disabled person can run to for comfort and solace. That is not what the God of the Bible teaches.[/quote]The "God of the Bible" teaches that Jesus was "'crowned with glory and honor' because he suffered death" ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews2.htm#v9"]Heb 2:9[/url]) and that He was made perfect through suffering ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews2.htm#v10"]Heb 2:10[/url]).

Following Jesus Christ is neither masochistic nor "Health and Wealth." It is, as Our Lord says, the decision to deny oneself and take up one's cross ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark8.htm#v34"]Mark 8:34[/url]). In St. Paul's letter to the Colossians ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians1.htm#v24"]Col 1:34[/url]), we learn the value of suffering.

Budge, "it does no favors for the sick and disabled" to teach a [i]different gospel[/i] from the one that was given to us by Our Lord, and Canonized by the Church.

[nawtyeravgjoe]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093055' date='Oct 16 2006, 01:29 PM']

Also it does no favors for the sick and disabled to be taught it is good to suffer. [suffering for their own salvation] That is not a God a sick or disabled person can run to for comfort and solace. That is not what the God of the Bible teaches.
[/quote]

this is why a protestant will never get blessed with stigmata.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093085' date='Oct 16 2006, 01:23 PM']
Jesus suffered and died for our sins, conquering sin and death, so people could be saved eternal suffering in hell.
[/quote]
Said nothing about Christians being spared suffering on earth. Did you even read the Bible quotes I gave earlier this thread??

[Budge]

[quote]this is why a protestant will never get blessed with stigmata.[/quote]

Thank God for that!

I do not believe it is from God. Oozing bloody sores, it has been the subject even of at least one horror movie!

besides the stigmata doesnt bleed in the right place....the physics wouldnt work. The nails were driven through the wrists [not the hands] and through the heels!

[b]

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and [u]thou shalt bruise his heel[/u]. [/b]

[img]http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/heelbones.jpg[/img]


Heel bone of first-century crucifixion victim

[veroni213]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093554' date='Oct 16 2006, 11:18 PM']

[b]

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and [u]thou shalt bruise his heel[/u]. [/b]

[img]http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/heelbones.jpg[/img]
Heel bone of first-century crucifixion victim
[/quote]

You might want to re-check that scripture reference- it looks worse than a bruise to me...

[Budge]

I went to go look up the Hebrew...

Hebrew for the word bruise.....hmmmmm


[b]7779. shuwph
Search for H7779 in KJVSL
Pwv shuwph shoof

a primitive root; properly, to gape, i.e. snap at; figuratively, to overwhelm:--break, bruise, cover.[/b]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, the ancient concept of the hand began at the wrist. God can make a stigmata appear in the palm if that is people's understanding of where it happened, in order to show more people His glory in His servants. The point isn't how accurate the stigmata is, but what its message is.

Oh, and if Jesus only bruised Satan's head, then that means something pretty sad for us.

[Budge]

[quote]God can make a stigmata appear in the palm if that is people's understanding of where it happened, in order to show more people His glory in His servants. The point isn't how accurate the stigmata is, but what its message is.[/quote]

Why would God be inaccurate about ANYTHING?

Also the message of stigmata, is based in sinful pride, "I will suffer for my own sins, bleeding and oozing sores" instead of standing on the sufficency of Christ's sacrifice.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093799' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:07 AM']
Why would God be inaccurate about ANYTHING?

Also the message of stigmata, is based in sinful pride, "I will suffer for my own sins, bleeding and oozing sores" instead of standing on the sufficency of Christ's sacrifice.
[/quote]
That's kinda twisted, Budge. Having the stigmata is a sign of suffering in Christ's name, kinda like what Paul talked about:

[quote]Paul's Affliction
3 ¶ Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

4 who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

7 And our hope of you is steadfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

8 ¶ For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, 1 Cor. 15.32 that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:

9 but we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

10 who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

11 ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]That's kinda twisted, Budge. Having the stigmata is a sign of suffering in Christ's name, kinda like what Paul talked about:[/quote]

Paul was talking about this...

Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

[b]2Cr 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;[/b]

[b]2Cr 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.[/b]

Paul was whipped and beaten as well.....those are the marks, not stigmata...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093799' date='Oct 17 2006, 10:07 AM']
Why would God be inaccurate about ANYTHING?
[/quote]
Well, you tell me...are you a geocentrist? I'm guessing not. Do you believe the Bible when it says that the earth is the center of the universe? The problem with the purely literalist interpretation of anything is that it doesn't look at the point, but only at the words. Words are symbols used together to represent thoughts and ideas. Literalism looks only at the symbols and fails to see beyond them. The stigmata is not an end in itself. The point isn't, "oh, look at his hands," the point is, "wow, this reminds me of what Christ did for me." Whether the wounds are in the wrists or palms, they still remind people of Christ's Crucifixion. The point isn't in the symbol, it's in the message the symbol conveys. Because many people believe that Christ was nailed in the hands, God, trying to remind them of the Crucifixion, may put the marks of the stigmata on someone's hands instead of on their wrists, so that the people may more fully appreciate the meaning.

[quote]Also the message of stigmata, is based in sinful pride, "I will suffer for my own sins, bleeding and oozing sores" instead of standing on the sufficency of Christ's sacrifice.[/quote]

The stigmata has nothing to do with pride. Have you ever read a Catholic biography of St. Francis? The man didn't have that much pride.

Further, all salvation stands on the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. It does. The Catholic Church says this. Then why all the talk of "redemptive suffering" and "penance"? Because while Christ has earned the salvation for the whole world, the whole world has not yet come to be saved...why is that? Because the whole world has not yet accepted Christ's message completely.

Now, since to accept salvation, we must become co-heirs with Christ (because salvation is His inheritance which He passes to us if we are His co-heirs), we must become His co-workers, that is, we must cooperate with grace. In order to do this, we need, by necessity, to be conformed to Him, not only in soul, but in body, so that the whole man may be saved, and this is why we must become members of His Body, so that as a part of His Body, which was resurrected, we may also be resurrected. Therefore, we must grow in likeness to Him. As a result of such growth, we begin to take on His appearance, first in our actions and virtues and thoughts, but also in our bodies, expressing joy and smiling with happiness and becoming more humble and simple in our clothing and outward manner, until finally, at length, He begins to shine through, He who is living in us, and we bear the marks of the Lord.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Sorry - no time to read thru all 4 pages of this thread, so I shall comment on the title.

Budgie - why are you pinning this on St. Therese? Only one entity can lead you away from God...that would be Satan. Either he worked you directly or through his agents. St. Therese isn't one of them...

If you continue to assert as such, show me proof please. The HCC says she is in heaven praying for all our souls...prove otherwise.

[uruviel]

Budge,
if you were to have a vision of God, just try to imagine please? Do you think that God would speak in Hebrew, or Latin, or any other language other than what you understand best? God will speak to you in whatever you understand, if you understand gibberish, God will speak it to you, and it will mean just the same to you had He spoken English. Now, if someone recieves the stigmata, and they understand that the nails were in His palms, then that's where He would give them to you. I can not sit here and tell you what God would do, because I don't know what God would do. Yes, I'm making an assumption. Because it clearly does not make sense that God would communicate with you, in a way that you couldn't understand or interpret. He will put it in your palms if you will interpret that as something from Him. Does this make any sense? to anyone?
^_^GodBless

[Theunknown101]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093799' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:07 AM']Also the message of stigmata, is based in sinful pride, "I will suffer for my own sins, bleeding and oozing sores" instead of standing on the sufficency of Christ's sacrifice.
[/quote]

We share in a common priesthood with Christ. Our sufferings have value in Him. It is perfectly Biblical.

[quote name=' Colossians 1:24'](I) now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.[/quote]

[quote name='Matthew 5:5']Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.[/quote]

God bless!


(posted w/ my bro's screenname again, grr...)

Edited October 27, 2006 by Theunknown101

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1093799' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:07 AM']
Why would God be inaccurate about ANYTHING?

Also the message of stigmata, is based in sinful pride, "I will suffer for my own sins, bleeding and oozing sores" instead of standing on the sufficency of Christ's sacrifice.
[/quote]


[quote name='Budge' post='1103165' date='Oct 28 2006, 11:31 AM']
Why not apologize?

I think the Prots {calvinists, puritans} who burned people at the stake also were wrong. They followed the messages of Satan rather then the commandments of Christ.

How hard is that to say?

The Catholic church always seems more intent on protecting and defending ITSELF rather then TRUTH. That is one of the most disturbing qualities about it.
[/quote]


So you have the ability to judge hearts!