cmotherofpirl Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM'] So you all believe you become born again at baptism? I have had other Catholics tell me that. I was given a Catholic baptism at the age of 10 days. I know for a fact personally I was not born again. {so why did your baptisms "take" and mine didn't?} Given we were all babies, no personal responsiblity would have been part of this picture. What did we know? Was I a bad to the bones baby, and you all good babies? I grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church. I do not believe that infant baptism leads one to be born again, and it worries me for you all because it may make you think you are born again...when youre not. {I dont know for each individual here, thats for God to know} There is such as thing as just KNOWING ABOUT Christ, and NOT KNOWING HIM...One cannot be saved by their parents beliefs. They can be taught, but I know if I had a child, they would need to enter into their own saving relationship with Christ, I could not do it for them. The problem is infant baptism almost teaches that the parents can do it for the baby. I know the day and time I become born again and turned my life over to Christ, and the immediate changes it wrought. [/quote] I really doesn't matter your opinion of your baptism in the Catholic Church, it doesn't change that it happened and you have a chance at salvation because of it.
cathoholic_anonymous Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0012sbs.asp"]Can Infants be Born Again?[/url] At baptism we enter into a loving, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Even though a baby isn't capable of understanding anything much, that relationship is still there. As I wrote in a thread that was suspiciously similar to this one, psychological tests have shown that very little babies show a distinct preference for their mothers' faces and voices over anyone else's. A four-day-old child can't understand the concept of motherhood on any meaningful level...but that doesn't mean he or she can't have a deeply intense, personal relationship with the mother.
Briguy Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Hi all, I have not posted for a while but when I saw this subject I knew I had to. Born again? = water Baptism?. Just not true. Jesus is the one who said "born again" and he was still physically alive. The water Baptism that Nic. would have known is the repentance Baptism that John was preaching. Believer water Baptism came later. Jesus was only speaking in the Spiritual sense, when he said "born again". When interpreting scripture you always start with a direct meaning. "Water" in John 3 here was referring to birth water, or the sack of fluid around a baby. If you have watched a birth it is easy to see where being born of water comes from. It is a flood of water that comes out before the baby. Jesus was simply referring to a natural birth and a spiritual birth. It was direct and meant what He said. He even follows it up with the concept of flesh coming from flesh and spirit from spirit. It is a physical and spirtual comparrison, we don't need to read more then that into it. Paul did not promote water Baptism. In 1 Cor. he said he was glad he only Baptized a very few people. Odd words to say if water Baptism is the enactment of God's grace. Paul could not have been glad he did not water baptize if water Baptism was what you all say it is. more later, In Love and Truth, Brian
Budge Posted October 17, 2006 Author Posted October 17, 2006 (edited) [quote]really doesn't matter your opinion of your baptism in the Catholic Church, it doesn't change that it happened and you have a chance at salvation because of it.[/quote] So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby. If baptism worked this way, one could go to the public pool and baptize all the heathens and call them BORN AGAIN. It just doesnt work that way, baptism is a public ordinance, that is to be done after being born again. [quote] At baptism we enter into a loving, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Even though a baby isn't capable of understanding anything much, that relationship is still there. As I wrote in a thread that was suspiciously similar to this one, psychological tests have shown that very little babies show a distinct preference for their mothers' faces and voices over anyone else's. A four-day-old child can't understand the concept of motherhood on any meaningful level...but that doesn't mean he or she can't have a deeply intense, personal relationship with the mother.[/quote] I dont agree. How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own. How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society.... [quote] So Budge, when you were almost a UU minister and all that, before becoming a Baptist... How did you feel? Did you feel "saved" then? Forget all the bias and such you have know and try to remember your honest feelings from back then. How do you know, that say 1 year down the line, you won't realize you weren't really "saved" right now? That you were mistaken? And that you'll need to be "saved" again.[/quote] I dont base my life on FEELINGS anymore but stand on the foundation of God's Word. There are biblical tests to know if one is saved or not. Once someone is a Christian they are done searching for what is missing. Also I was not a church hopper as some have claimed. I was raised Catholic and UU for most of my young adult life, over 13 years......[returned to Catholic Church as I was leaving UU for very short time] before I was saved. Edited October 17, 2006 by Budge
Anomaly Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1093795' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:03 AM'] So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby. If baptism worked this way, one could go to the public pool and baptize all the heathens and call them BORN AGAIN. It just doesnt work that way, baptism is a public ordinance, that is to be done after being born again. I dont agree. How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own. How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society.... I dont base my life on FEELINGS anymore but stand on the foundation of God's Word. There are biblical tests to know if one is saved or not. [/quote]Why do so many of those 'Dunked in the Water' baptists become backsliders after their baptism? Just because you got wet or was given faith, it doesn't mean you [b]maintain[/b] your relationship with God, does it, Budge? What are the 'Biblical Tests' that let one know if they're saved? Edited October 17, 2006 by Anomaly
Budge Posted October 17, 2006 Author Posted October 17, 2006 [quote]Why do so many of those 'Dunked in the Water' baptists become backsliders after their baptism? Just because you got wet or was given faith, it doesn't mean you maintain your relationship with God, does it, Budge?[/quote] Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide. Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did?
Anomaly Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093800' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:11 AM'] Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide. Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did? [/quote] You're attitude is very non-biblical. Grace is given, but we can choose to reject it. You make excuses and profess falsehoods when you claim the Bible wasn't taught in Catholic schools. You were told about God and Jesus in Catholic Schools. That's grace right there. Why did you continually reject it until you were in your 30's. Your tale tells more about God's patience than anything else. Jesus clearly tells us the gift of faith is like a seed being sown. That is what baptism does. It gives Grace, recieves the seed of faith by Grace, and prepares the soil by Grace. How you choose to ignore or abuse that gift of Grace is up to you, but your story, like mine, is a testimony to God's patience, not a testament to the inadequacies of religious actions.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093800' date='Oct 17 2006, 10:11 AM'] Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide. Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did? [/quote] You did get born again. Unfortunately, since conversion is a continual process, it requires continued growth. Many parents and Catholic educators are failing in keeping up this continual growth. There are lots of parents who get their children baptized because "it's the thing to do" instead of "because I want my child to grow in a relationship with God." However, there are many other parents who do have the proper attitude and do take care to raise their children as Christians, and you see those children grow up and generally grow very faithful.
Anomaly Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093800' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:11 AM'] Christians have to persevere and yes you are right some do go into sin and do backslide. Saying some one is automatically born again, as an infant because they have water poured on them, just doesnt work....considering all the athiests, Wiccans, and rest I know who were baptized as infants in a variety of Prot and Catholic churches, they show no evidence of ever knowing God. I know for a fact, I did not know God til I was 33 years old almost 34 years old---{year I got saved}. No one has answered why as an infant I did not become born again, and they did? [/quote] Budge, Obviously you have confused the patience and loyalty of God with the guarentee of Salvation. God's guarentee is that Grace will continually be offered, but Christians have to persevere to bring that Grace to fruition. It's not "Once Saved, Always Saved" it's "Grace is always offered and never refused" Paul speaks of this clearly. Warning against Rejecting God's Grace 12 ¶ Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; Is. 35.3 13 and make straight paths for your feet, Prov. 4.26 lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 [b]looking diligently [u]lest any man fail of the grace of God[/u]; lest any root of bitterness Deut. 29.18 springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;[/b] 16 lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, [b]who for one morsel of meat sold his birthrigh[/b]t. Gen. 25.29-34 17 [b]For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears[/b]. Gen. 27.30-40 18 ¶ For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: Ex. 19.16-22 ; 20.18-21 · Deut. 4.11, 12 ; 5.22-27 20 ([b]for they could not endure that which was commanded[/b], And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: Ex. 19.12, 13 21 and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) Deut. 9.19 22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Gen. 4.10 25 ¶ See that ye refuse not him that speaketh: for if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, Ex. 20.19 much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet [b]once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven[/b]. Hag. 2.6 27 [b]And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken[/b], as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, [b]let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably [/b] with reverence and godly fear: 29 for our God is a consuming fire. Deut. 4.24
jswranch Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093795' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:03 AM'] So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby. How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own. How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society.... [/quote] Tell us about the spiritual influence your parents had on you. When the had you baptized, they made a binding promise before God to raise you in Christianity. They were instructed and promised to teach you to follow Christ as you grew and to have faith. Did they live up to the promises they made?
Mercy me Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Yes, I am a born again child of God. My baptism took it just took me a while to respond to it.
cmotherofpirl Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093795' date='Oct 17 2006, 10:03 AM'] So why didnt mine "take"? I was no different from any other baby. If baptism worked this way, one could go to the public pool and baptize all the heathens and call them BORN AGAIN. It just doesnt work that way, baptism is a public ordinance, that is to be done after being born again. I dont agree. How come? Because one does not get into heaven based on your teachers, parents friends, relationship with God, but your own. How many little babies get baptized who grow up totally without God. That is happening more and more in secular society.... I dont base my life on FEELINGS anymore but stand on the foundation of God's Word. There are biblical tests to know if one is saved or not. Once someone is a Christian they are done searching for what is missing. Also I was not a church hopper as some have claimed. I was raised Catholic and UU for most of my young adult life, over 13 years......[returned to Catholic Church as I was leaving UU for very short time] before I was saved. [/quote] Baptism does not cease to be entrance into the kingdom just because you don't think it is.
Mateo el Feo Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Briguy' post='1093794' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:58 AM']Hi all, I have not posted for a while but when I saw this subject I knew I had to. Born again? = water Baptism?. Just not true. Jesus is the one who said "born again" and he was still physically alive. The water Baptism that Nic. would have known is the repentance Baptism that John was preaching. Believer water Baptism came later. Jesus was only speaking in the Spiritual sense, when he said "born again". When interpreting scripture you always start with a direct meaning. "Water" in John 3 here was referring to birth water, or the sack of fluid around a baby. If you have watched a birth it is easy to see where being born of water comes from. It is a flood of water that comes out before the baby. Jesus was simply referring to a natural birth and a spiritual birth. It was direct and meant what He said. He even follows it up with the concept of flesh coming from flesh and spirit from spirit. It is a physical and spirtual comparrison, we don't need to read more then that into it. Paul did not promote water Baptism. In 1 Cor. he said he was glad he only Baptized a very few people. Odd words to say if water Baptism is the enactment of God's grace. Paul could not have been glad he did not water baptize if water Baptism was what you all say it is.[/quote]St. Paul [u]did[/u] promote Baptism. The context of [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians1.htm#v13"]1 Cor 1:13-17[/url] is clear that his desire was to avoid division among the Corinthians. He was concerned that if he personally baptized people, people would identify with the minister (i.e. St. Paul) instead of Jesus. St. Paul speaks of the saving power of Baptism all over the place. Some quotes are: [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans6.htm#v3"]Romans 6:3-4[/url] [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/colossians/colossians2.htm#v12"]Col 2:12[/url] [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/titus/titus3.htm#v5"]Titus 3:5[/url] St. Peter is even more clear about Baptism ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1peter/1peter3.htm#v21"]1 Pet 3:21[/url])[quote]This (i.e. the story of Noah's Ark) prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.[/quote] Plenty more info about Baptism here: [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp[/url] I hope you would be open to learning what the Early Church Fathers believed about being born again. The distinction of being born again and Baptism is both non-Biblical and ahistorical.
Winchester Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote] grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church. [/quote] Am I given to understand that once born again, a person loses free will? That would be the only reasonable position I could draw from this question. I explain the many people baptized who later become secularists in the same way I explain those who do not: free will. (and in the case of those who maintain their Faith under the onslaught of evil and stupidity, Grace.)
Dave Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Briguy' post='1093794' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:58 AM'] Born again? = water Baptism?. Just not true. Jesus is the one who said "born again" and he was still physically alive. The water Baptism that Nic. would have known is the repentance Baptism that John was preaching. Believer water Baptism came later. Jesus was only speaking in the Spiritual sense, when he said "born again". When interpreting scripture you always start with a direct meaning. "Water" in John 3 here was referring to birth water, or the sack of fluid around a baby. If you have watched a birth it is easy to see where being born of water comes from. It is a flood of water that comes out before the baby. Jesus was simply referring to a natural birth and a spiritual birth. It was direct and meant what He said. He even follows it up with the concept of flesh coming from flesh and spirit from spirit. It is a physical and spirtual comparrison, we don't need to read more then that into it. [/quote] Sorry, Briguy, but being born of water does NOT equal amniotic fluid. For one, the context of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in the Gospel of John clearly points towards baptism, and there is no evidence that the Greek word for water (hudor) represents amniotic fluid. If John had wished to show a dichotomy between water and the spirit, he would've said, "born of water and of the spirit," thus indicating two births. When John speaks of being born of water and the spirit, he mentions them as being a part of the same spiritual rebirth that takes place at baptism (Tit. 3:5). All of the early Christian writers understood John to be speaking in this way, and they unanimously agreed that John 3:5 referred to baptism.
avemaria40 Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 02:20 PM'] So you all believe you become born again at baptism? I have had other Catholics tell me that. I was given a Catholic baptism at the age of 10 days. I know for a fact personally I was not born again. {so why did your baptisms "take" and mine didn't?} Given we were all babies, no personal responsiblity would have been part of this picture. What did we know? Was I a bad to the bones baby, and you all good babies? I grew up and almost became a UU minister where I would have been an official enemy of Christ. How do you explain all the people who get baptized and grow up as secularists, Christ-rejecters and outright atheists and agnostics. Even Madilyn O' Hare was baptized as an infant in some mainline prot church. I do not believe that infant baptism leads one to be born again, and it worries me for you all because it may make you think you are born again...when youre not. {I dont know for each individual here, thats for God to know} There is such as thing as just KNOWING ABOUT Christ, and NOT KNOWING HIM...One cannot be saved by their parents beliefs. They can be taught, but I know if I had a child, they would need to enter into their own saving relationship with Christ, I could not do it for them. The problem is infant baptism almost teaches that the parents can do it for the baby. I know the day and time I become born again and turned my life over to Christ, and the immediate changes it wrought. [/quote] Christ said you needed to be born of water and the Spirit to be born again. Guess what? I wasn't raised in a Christian household AT ALL and I still grew up praying to Jesus (we had a children's Bible, I went to Catholic school and my mom's family is very devoutly Protestant) I wasn't baptized till I was 14 years old and when I was, that was when I was oficially given to God, when I knew I would from that day forward be considered His daughter. Even if you've been born again, Jesus still says you have to make the right choices. He said not all who called Him Lord, Lord would enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that whoever took care of others would in essence be taking care of Him. Infant baptism does not say the parents do it for the baby, instead it is the parents entrusting their child over to God, for Him to take care of and watch over. In the Old Testament, the sign of the Covenant was circumcision and yes, they circumsised their babies and would even devote their first born sons to God. Baptism replaced circumcision but did Jesus say that we had to exclude children from the Covenant? On the contrary He said "Let the children come to me." Even if someone becomes an agnostic, atheist, w/e as an adult, we cannot attribute that problem to infant baptism. Instead, it is the person who makes that choice and they will have to give an account to Jesus in the hereafter. God gave us free will and on the dawn of human existence He gave us a choice, to follow Him or not to follow Him. If someone chooses not to follow Him, that is their choice and unless they change their ways, it is they who are responsible for their own undoing.
homeschoolmom Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 If "born of water" meant actual, physical birth, then aborted babies cannot enter the kingdom of heaven bacause they are not actually "born." In fact, many of them are aborted before amniotic fluid begins to develop. We believe that there may be a baptism of desire in this case. What do you say happens to them?
Katholikos Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends, I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such. [b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b] Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles. Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Katholikos ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 [quote name='Katholikos' post='1094378' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:45 PM'] Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends, I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such. [b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b] Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles. Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Katholikos ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote. [/quote] Katholikos!!!!!!!!!!!! You probably don't remember me, I was just getting in as you were getting out...good to see you!
Gadfly Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Budge Wrote, [quote]The question of accepting or rejecting Christ must be settled in your heart. Whether you are a church-goer, give lots of money to charities, and do all kinds of religious works, it really doesn’t matter. What matters is—ARE YOU A BORN AGAIN CHILD OF GOD? No amount of religion or outward self-righteousness can help you on judgment day. Salvation is not found in a religion; but in a person, Jesus Christ. It’s simple! You are a sinner in need of a Savior. Stop trying to save yourself and decide to rely upon Jesus. Only Jesus paid for your sins, so only He alone can save! From your heart, simply ask Jesus to forgive your sins and become your Savior. Decide to rely upon Him alone to save your soul.[/quote] While I wholeheartedly agree with your resounding condemnation of "religion", (C.S. Lewis pointed that out very well at the end of "Screwtape propuses a toast") don't you think good works might matter a little bit in light of Matthew 25, verses 31 through 46?
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