cmotherofpirl Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 [quote name='Katholikos' post='1094378' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:45 PM'] Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends, I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such. [b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b] Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles. Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Katholikos ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote. [/quote] Kath? our Katholikos!!!! Amen I say rejoice!!!!! TE DEUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tacos, so very tasty and good for you, and cheesecake party for everyone. tears of joy to see your name old friend.
Resurrexi Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 I was baptised into the Christ's Bride and Mystical Body three weeks and four days after my birth.
Briguy Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Katholikos, You didn't make much of an argument. In fact, you made no argument at all, just a statement with nothing behind it. avamarie40, Your question is a fair one. When Jesus said "born of water" he was speaking to Nic., an adult. He was making a point to one person and we, the readers get to see the conversation unfold. The audience that the speaker or writer of a bible passage is dealing with is crucial in understanding what the scriptures mean. Sometimes we want to make everything in the Bible seem like it was spoken to us, in the year 2006. However, that is not the case and this passage was spoken in about 32 or 33 AD and written probly in 70-80AD. The point is Jesus was making a direct "point" and not writing a doctrinal statement. He was simply stating the obvious to a pharisee who had listening ears. Jesus is saying that we are all born in sin and need a second birth, one that is spiritual. So, the aborted child does not need to be born because to be created is enough. To be created in the womb is to have original sin condemnation. It just comes with being human. The aborted Baby is a baby at conception but Nic. would not have understood jesus if he had said conceived as knowledge of reproduction then was nothing like it is now. Jesus used the words that best fit who He was talking to and the point he was making. The truth here is that the adult needs to have a second birth to qualify for Heaven. The second birth includes "belief" as that is the driving point of John 3:16 that follows this conversation on the second birth. I could go on but think I will stop so you can respond In Love and Truth, Brian
Quietfire Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 [quote name='Katholikos' post='1094378' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:45 PM'] Hi, dUSt, cmom, and other old friends, I'm just lurking around phatmass for the first time in a long time and got the urge to say something in response to the posts about about amniotic fluid, denial of baptism to babies, that John 3:5 doesn't mean what it says, and such. [b]As Luther said, biblical texts, like wax noses, can be twisted to fit.[/b] Protestantism is divorced from history. How good it is to be Catholic and know that our beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians who learned their doctrine from the lips of the Apostles. Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Katholikos ex-Baptist, agnostic, atheist Thanks to former Lutheran Fr. Richard John Neuhaus for the Luther quote. [/quote] [quote name='Raphael' post='1094385' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:56 PM'] Katholikos!!!!!!!!!!!! You probably don't remember me, I was just getting in as you were getting out...good to see you! [/quote] I am SO HAPPY to see you posting again old friend. My response was the same as Raphael's. Im hopping in my seat!!!!!!! It is sad that Budge has refused the grace given to her at her baptism. We should pray that one day her heart will not be hardened as stone, and she will allow that grace to lead her home. Pax
Theologian in Training Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 [quote name='Briguy' post='1094698' date='Oct 18 2006, 09:29 AM'] Katholikos, You didn't make much of an argument. In fact, you made no argument at all, just a statement with nothing behind it. avamarie40, Your question is a fair one. When Jesus said "born of water" he was speaking to Nic., an adult. He was making a point to one person and we, the readers get to see the conversation unfold. The audience that the speaker or writer of a bible passage is dealing with is crucial in understanding what the scriptures mean. Sometimes we want to make everything in the Bible seem like it was spoken to us, in the year 2006. However, that is not the case and this passage was spoken in about 32 or 33 AD and written probly in 70-80AD. The point is Jesus was making a direct "point" and not writing a doctrinal statement. He was simply stating the obvious to a pharisee who had listening ears. Jesus is saying that we are all born in sin and need a second birth, one that is spiritual. So, the aborted child does not need to be born because to be created is enough. To be created in the womb is to have original sin condemnation. It just comes with being human. The aborted Baby is a baby at conception but Nic. would not have understood jesus if he had said conceived as knowledge of reproduction then was nothing like it is now. Jesus used the words that best fit who He was talking to and the point he was making. The truth here is that the adult needs to have a second birth to qualify for Heaven. The second birth includes "belief" as that is the driving point of John 3:16 that follows this conversation on the second birth. I could go on but think I will stop so you can respond In Love and Truth, Brian [/quote] Brian, (good name) you're new here, so I will fill you in. Katholikos is a long time member of the phatmass family and has had his share of suffering, suffering more than I would imagine any human should suffer. We are always praying for him as a result. The fact that he is able to post a message, let alone "no argument" is more than enough. God Bless Fr. Brian
kenrockthefirst Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 [quote name='Budge' post='1093046' date='Oct 16 2006, 12:20 PM']I do not believe that infant baptism leads one to be born again...[/quote] It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what's true. As others have stated far more cogently than I, unless there is an absolute authority that teaches what's true and what isn't, then what you "believe" is simply your opinion, no better or worse than mine.
Briguy Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Fr. Brian, thank you so much for telling me that. I should not have posted what I did without knowing who I was posting to. I am a social worker by trade and work with people who have various physical disabilities. I see how devestating life can be all the time and I should have been more careful. My sincere apologies! In Christian love, Brian
Theologian in Training Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 [quote name='Briguy' post='1095104' date='Oct 18 2006, 05:39 PM'] Fr. Brian, thank you so much for telling me that. I should not have posted what I did without knowing who I was posting to. I am a social worker by trade and work with people who have various physical disabilities. I see how devestating life can be all the time and I should have been more careful. My sincere apologies! In Christian love, Brian [/quote] No problem, I was just letting you know. I knew your intent was not malicious, so no need to apologize. God Bless Fr. Brian
Winchester Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 [quote name='Briguy' post='1094698' date='Oct 18 2006, 08:29 AM'] ...this passage was spoken in about 32 or 33 AD and written probly in 70-80AD... [/quote] The proper rendering would put "AD" before the date. AD 32 or 33. It's a common modern error.
Katholikos Posted October 19, 2006 Posted October 19, 2006 [quote name='Briguy' post='1094698' date='Oct 18 2006, 08:29 AM'] Katholikos, You didn't make much of an argument. In fact, you made no argument at all, just a statement with nothing behind it. Brian [/quote]Hi, Brian I didn't intend to "make much of an argument." I made the following observations: 1. The denial of baptism to infants and children, the idea that "water" means amniotic fluid in John 3:5, and your notion of what it means to be "born again" are novel ideas that have no basis in historical Christianity. They are all inventions of the 16th century or later, probably much later. 2. Scripture can be (and is!) twisted to fit these misconceptions. 3. Protestantism is divorced from historical Christianity. As a Protestant, you have a portion of the "Truth." The whole Truth and nothing but the Truth of Christianity is found only in the Catholic Church, the Mother Church of Christendom, who invites all to come home. The history of Christianity from the first century to the twenty-first is the history of the Catholic Church. Your version of Christianity is but one among thousands of interpretations of the Scriptures. Catholicism comes to us directly from the lips of the Apostles. The NT Scriptures are a product of the Church, not vice versa. Peace be with you, Katholikos ex-Southern bapitst, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist
Katholikos Posted October 19, 2006 Posted October 19, 2006 [quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1095030' date='Oct 18 2006, 03:51 PM'] Brian, (good name) you're new here, so I will fill you in. Katholikos is a long time member of the phatmass family and has had his share of suffering, suffering more than I would imagine any human should suffer. We are always praying for him as a result. The fact that he is able to post a message, let alone "no argument" is more than enough. God Bless Fr. Brian [/quote]Father! I'm so glad to know you persevered and are now serving at the altar of Our Lord. I'm sorry I wasn't around to celebrate your ordination. Belated congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I won't be calling you "Theo" anymore Thanks for defending me. It truly is good to be among old friends. It fills my heart with joy and my eyes with tears. You've prompted me to begin my first thread since my homecoming on redemptive suffering. Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Likos (Jay) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1094421' date='Oct 17 2006, 09:44 PM'] Kath? our Katholikos!!!! Amen I say rejoice!!!!! TE DEUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tacos, so very tasty and good for you, and cheesecake party for everyone. tears of joy to see your name old friend. [/quote]Hey, cmom! It's not nice to make a grown man cry. Thanks for the party! Luv U. Kath [quote name='Quietfire' post='1094991' date='Oct 18 2006, 02:46 PM'] I am SO HAPPY to see you posting again old friend. My response was the same as Raphael's. Im hopping in my seat!!!!!!! [/quote]I'm overjoyed to be able to join you on the battlefield again. : [quote name='Raphael' post='1094385' date='Oct 17 2006, 08:56 PM'] Katholikos!!!!!!!!!!!! You probably don't remember me, I was just getting in as you were getting out...good to see you! [/quote]Of course, I remember you! Thank YOU for remembering me! Good to be back. Likos
Theologian in Training Posted October 20, 2006 Posted October 20, 2006 (edited) [quote name='Katholikos' post='1095985' date='Oct 19 2006, 04:57 PM'] Father! I'm so glad to know you persevered and are now serving at the altar of Our Lord. I'm sorry I wasn't around to celebrate your ordination. Belated congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I won't be calling you "Theo" anymore Thanks for defending me. It truly is good to be among old friends. It fills my heart with joy and my eyes with tears. You've prompted me to begin my first thread since my homecoming on redemptive suffering. Praise and exalt Him forever in His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Likos (Jay)[/quote] Yes, I did persevere. The ordination was in May and I have been at the parish I have been assigned to, St. Margaret, since July. I think one of the main tasks for my being assigned here was to help the pastor, since he was overwhelmed with a staff that fights him at every turn. Also, since it is primarily a Hispanic parish, they wanted an "Anglo" presence for those who have been here for years and felt as though it was becoming a fully Hispanic parish. Actually, we have a lot of work to do, because the bishop stopped by a couple of weeks ago to give us a public ultimatum that we must move the tabernacle from the side to a more promiment place (he had the middle in mind) Anyway, thank you for the congrats and great to see you back. Oh, and can't wait to see the thread on redemptive suffering. I would imagine you would have a lot to talk about God Bless Fr. Brian Edited October 20, 2006 by Theologian in Training
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