Debate Between Budge And Raphael

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge has announced that she will not be coming back. Therefore, this thread is closed.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge has now decided to return, so I am opening this thread again. Budge, would you like to continue where you left off?

[Budge]

[quote]It's Christ's divinity that requires a sinless vessel, not His spotless humanity.[/quote]

If the Holy Spirit can come to dwell in a sinful person who accepts Jesus Christ as saviour and is born again? Why did Christ need a sinless vessel?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207811' date='Mar 4 2007, 02:54 PM']If the Holy Spirit can come to dwell in a sinful person who accepts Jesus Christ as saviour and is born again? Why did Christ need a sinless vessel?[/quote]
Grace allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in a sinful person. Grace is what allowed Jesus Christ to dwell in the Blessed Virgin. I don't see anything contradictory there. The only difference is that the Blessed Virgin Mary was full of grace and therefore without sin.

[Budge]

[quote]Grace allows the Holy Spirit to dwell in a sinful person. Grace is what allowed Jesus Christ to dwell in the Blessed Virgin. I don't see anything contradictory there. The only difference is that the Blessed Virgin Mary was full of grace and therefore without sin.[/quote]

Why did she have to be sinless?

Anyhow it is NOT in the Bible, where the Bible says ALL have sinned...

Mary in the Bible said she needed a Savior.

and there is one part in the Bible where Mary and Jesus's brothers and sisters are questioning him....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207993' date='Mar 4 2007, 07:30 PM']Why did she have to be sinless?

Anyhow it is NOT in the Bible, where the Bible says ALL have sinned...

Mary in the Bible said she needed a Savior.

and there is one part in the Bible where Mary and Jesus's brothers and sisters are questioning him....[/quote]

Well, first, the Bible does not say that each person sinned, it says that all have sinned. Likewise, I can validly say that all humans have two legs and it's true, because it's a categorical statement on human nature, but it does not mean the same thing as saying that each human has two legs, which is clearly false, since there are amputees, embryos, and the like. It is making a statement about the generally fallen nature of man.

Second, Mary in the Bible said she had a Savior, not that she needed a Savior. Now, it is true that she needed a Savior, but her Savior, Jesus Christ, her Son, had already saved her. Therefore, she was no longer in need, but clearly had a Savior.

Third, I don't recall a part in Scripture saying that Mary questioned Jesus. I recall one saying that His "brothers and sisters," that is, His relatives, were questioning Him, but not His mother questioning Him. Please point it out to me.

Finally, to answer your first question last, the blessed Virgin bore Jesus in a fuller way than anyone ever has, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in His Local Presence, rather than His Sacramental Presence. Since we know that if we receive Communion while in mortal sin (i.e. without grace), we will drink judgment on ourselves and it will destroy us (unless we repent of it), and we only receive His Sacramental Presence, it follows that Mary, receiving His Local Presence, would have to be far more sanctified. If we take the Ark of the Covenant as a foreshadowing, then she would have to be of pure nature, that is, completely free of spot or blemish. So she is the Immaculate Conception.

[Budge]

[quote]Third, I don't recall a part in Scripture saying that Mary questioned Jesus. I recall one saying that His "brothers and sisters," that is, His relatives, were questioning Him, but not His mother questioning Him. Please point it out to me.[/quote]

There is this time...at 12:46 ¶ [b]While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.[/b]
T
Mat 12:47 [b]Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren![/b]


Here is a time that SHOWS THAT MARY WAS ANYTHING BUT PERFECT..


Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luk 2:50 [b]And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.[/b]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1208482' date='Mar 5 2007, 09:35 AM']There is this time...at 12:46 ¶ [b]While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.[/b]
T
Mat 12:47 [b]Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren![/b]
Here is a time that SHOWS THAT MARY WAS ANYTHING BUT PERFECT..
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luk 2:50 [b]And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.[/b][/quote]

The first passage only shows that Jesus' relatives and mother wanted to speak with Him. It doesn't say anything about their sinfulness. Rather, Jesus saw an opportunity to teach what true family was. That does not mean that He was saying His family wasn't true family. Consequently, it doesn't mean at all that He was saying His mother wasn't sinless.

The second passage also only shows that Jesus has great wisdom and that the Blessed Virgin did not understand it all. Lack of understanding may in many cases be caused by a lack of holiness, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. St. Paul says that God's ways are unsearchable. That means that there are some bits of divine wisdom which no one, no matter how holy, could comprehend. So the Blessed Virgin, filled with grace, still doesn't understand everything. No one ever said she did.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

Mary is a human being, and it seems Rome wants to turn her into anything else BUT.

If Jesus saw his disciples as his TRUE family, then why would your church elevate his human family to the level it has when it comes to Mary?

We may love our biological families as Christians, but our true family will be those who are saved in Christ with us in heaven. Other followers of Christ.

Rome elevates relational ties ABOVE the lesson Jesus is preaching here.

The second passages shows that Mary has human limitations because she did NOT understand.

This means Mary had lack of discernment to put it frankly. This shows she was an ordinary individual with faults and foillbles like any other human being.

I believe the real Mary is in heaven wtih God. Her personality as shown in the BIble does not match even the teachings of Rome.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1208532' date='Mar 5 2007, 11:38 AM']Mary is a human being, and it seems Rome wants to turn her into anything else BUT.

If Jesus saw his disciples as his TRUE family, then why would your church elevate his human family to the level it has when it comes to Mary?[/quote]

Remember the terms of this debate. The Catechism is to be used whenever the Church is said to be teaching something. You claim that the Church elevates Mary to something beyond human. Please show me from the Catechism where it says that Mary is beyond human.

[quote]We may love our biological families as Christians, but our true family will be those who are saved in Christ with us in heaven. Other followers of Christ.

Rome elevates relational ties ABOVE the lesson Jesus is preaching here. [/quote]Not at all. Jesus' Mother also happens to be His most faithful follower. If she were a horrible sinner, we would not honor her, even though she would be related to Jesus. We honor her because through her faith she was able to accept the Holy Spirit and became the Mother of God.

[quote]The second passages shows that Mary has human limitations because she did NOT understand.[/quote]

Uh huh. The Church never said otherwise.

[quote]This means Mary had lack of discernment to put it frankly. This shows she was an ordinary individual with faults and foillbles like any other human being. [/quote]No, it only means that she didn't get it right away, just like most people might not get it right away. It most certainly doesn't indicate a lack of discernment, as a few verses later, we are told that she kept those things in her heart.

[quote]I believe the real Mary is in heaven wtih God. Her personality as shown in the BIble does not match even the teachings of Rome.[/quote]

You have yet to prove that you know what Rome teaches about Mary.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

[quote]You claim that the Church elevates Mary to something beyond human. Please show me from the Catechism where it says that Mary is beyond human.[/quote]

The very fact that your church teaches Mary can "hear" a million Hail Mary's at once is enough or that Mary knows the desires of your heart.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1208547' date='Mar 5 2007, 11:58 AM']The very fact that your church teaches Mary can "hear" a million Hail Mary's at once is enough or that Mary knows the desires of your heart.[/quote]
Do you think that when you are in heaven, you will remain the same? You will still be human, but you will "be like Him, for [you] shall see Him as He is." If indeed the Blessed Virgin is glorified in heaven, it should come as no surprise to you that she can hear many prayers. However, that doesn't mean that we call her a goddess or anything of the sort; we only say that she has a glorified humanity. This is in line with the precept: "the glory of God is man fully alive."

I'd still appreciate a Catechism reference.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

hehehe

Ive noticed that before too Pope actually uses phrase Cult of Mary.

The Collyriddians are alive and well in Rome!
[quote]Quite frankly, outsiders have every right to be confused about Marian devotion, given the ferocity and myopia of some Marianists.[/quote]

We arent confused, we just admit what is going on.

The real Mary doesnt want you praying or talking to her, or building shrines to her, or making tissue paper flowers but focusing on God.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209124' date='Mar 6 2007, 02:24 PM']hehehe

Ive noticed that before too Pope actually uses phrase Cult of Mary.

The Collyriddians are alive and well in Rome!
We arent confused, we just admit what is going on.

The real Mary doesnt want you praying or talking to her, or building shrines to her, or making tissue paper flowers but focusing on God.[/quote]
We use the Latin form of "cultus," which has a much broader meaning than the English form "cult." In fact, in Latin, any followers you make in your religious views would be called your "cultus." It simply means "a devoted following."

Marian prayer, shrines, and other devotions point us to God. We do not wish to adore Mary, but to behold her Son through her eyes.

Again, I ask that anyone who wishes to enter this thread abstain. Many side issues and tangents can be avoided if you will let this discussion stay between Budge and myself.

Budge, back on topic, if you please. Do you care to address the previous points I made in my post above?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Bump

[Budge]

[quote]e use the Latin form of "cultus," which has a much broader meaning than the English form "cult." In fact, in Latin, any followers you make in your religious views would be called your "cultus." It simply means "a devoted following."[/quote]That devotion should be going to Jesus Christ.

[quote]
Marian prayer, shrines, and other devotions point us to God. We do not wish to adore Mary, but to behold her Son through her eyes.[/quote]

How can you behold Jesus via Mary's eyes. Actually how can you KNOW MARY? Mary the real one is in heaven.

We know God via prayer and the Holy Spirit. So how are you communicating with Mary? Does she answer back? Is her "Spirit" with you?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1209690' date='Mar 7 2007, 09:24 AM']That devotion should be going to Jesus Christ.[/quote]

It is. I'm glad we agree.


[quote]How can you behold Jesus via Mary's eyes. Actually how can you KNOW MARY? Mary the real one is in heaven.

We know God via prayer and the Holy Spirit. So how are you communicating with Mary? Does she answer back? Is her "Spirit" with you?[/quote]

I was speaking figuratively, Budge. We ask Mary to pray for the Holy Spirit to show us the truth about Jesus, the truth she herself sees. We ask her to guide us in prayer and, through the Holy Spirit, to show us in the mysteries what we would not otherwise see. We communicate with Mary through Jesus Christ, her Son, for we are in the same Body, the Church. Sometimes she does answer back. Finally, no, Mary does not have a capital-S "Spirit."

Anyway, I'm done addressing this tangent. We were discussing the Immaculate Conception. Would you care to continue the debate?

[Budge]

They did the Immaculate Conception "doctrine" to clean up their tracks, because the Assumption of Mary, well if Mary had sin, she would have had to DIE, "the wages of sin are death" but then they arent sure about that given the TOMBS of MARY...

[Budge]

[b]The Catholic Church cant even confirm if Mary died or not[/b] but supposely they KNOW she was assumed into heaven...


How's that for goofy?

But there are TWO "Tombs" for Mary, one in Jerusalem, the other in Ephesus

JERUSALEM TOMB

[img]http://www.jerusalemiloveyou.com/v-mary.jpg[/img]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Just because the Catholic Church doesn't say whether or not Mary died doesn't mean anything to this discussion. If they came out and officially ruled, you would accuse them of focusing too much on Mary. If they remain silent, you accuse them of ignorance.

Now, I see that you've started posting information that has nothing to do with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Please discuss the topic at hand.

God bless,

Micah