Debate Between Budge And Raphael

[Budge]

[quote]Now, I see that you've started posting information that has nothing to do with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Please discuss the topic at hand. smile.gif[/quote]

Look if they dont even know if she died or now, and have TWO places listed as her tomb, how do they know that she was immacuately conceived. They dont. They made it up and its not in the Bible!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1210013' date='Mar 7 2007, 08:16 PM']Look if they dont even know if she died or now, and have TWO places listed as her tomb, how do they know that she was immacuately conceived. They dont. They made it up and its not in the Bible![/quote]
Your logic doesn't follow. In the first half of your statement, you are saying that not knowing one thing is equal to not knowing another thing. In the second half of your statement, you are assuming your own conclusion as a premise. You cannot simply state that something is false and unbiblical and then provide as evidence that it is false and unbiblical. The entire point of this thread is to show that the Immaculate Conception is true and is Biblical, and I have debated with you on every point and am awaiting your reply to those points. Please reply to them. It is not considered good debate practice (nor does it prove your position) to ignore the evidence and claim that your conclusion stands on its own while at the same time refusing to defend your position for whatever reason.

Please debate the issue. I have given responses and I await your reply.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

Look if they dont even know if she died or not...

how could they know if she was assumed up to heaven?

They cant even say if it was her dead body being assumed up to heaven or if she was a ALIVE.

And considering there are TWO TOMBS for her, decided upon before this doctrine, that says it wasnt always a belief

I know there was a saint,..Saint basil? That wrote against the Assumption of Mary.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1210291' date='Mar 8 2007, 07:06 AM']Look if they dont even know if she died or not...

how could they know if she was assumed up to heaven?

They cant even say if it was her dead body being assumed up to heaven or if she was a ALIVE.

And considering there are TWO TOMBS for her, decided upon before this doctrine, that says it wasnt always a belief

I know there was a saint,..Saint basil? That wrote against the Assumption of Mary.[/quote]
Okay, first off, you're arguing about the Assumption. The thread topic is the Immaculate Conception.

Second, no one in the Catholic Church says that her dead body was assumed. Either she didn't die and was assumed or she died and resurrected and was assumed. No one ever says she was dead during the Assumption.

Third, the tradition which said she died says that she died for a few days (three, I believe) and then rose again, just like her Son. In that case, there would be a tomb for her. Just because the location is contested doesn't mean a thing. The existence of a tomb does not disprove the Assumption.

Anyway, please return to the proper topic of the thread.

God bless,

Micah

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Bump

[Thy Geekdom Come]

bump

[Budge]

[quote]Second, no one in the Catholic Church says that her dead body was assumed. Either she didn't die and was assumed or she died and resurrected and was assumed. No one ever says she was dead during the Assumption.[/quote]

Ok because none of this is in the Bible, if they dont even know if she died or not, how do they KNOW she was ASSUMED?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1216355' date='Mar 20 2007, 07:16 AM']Ok because none of this is in the Bible, if they dont even know if she died or not, how do they KNOW she was ASSUMED?[/quote]
They didn't find any relics of her, so they just Assumed.

Okay, all joking aside...

First, it's Tradition. The Fathers of the Church and the Apostolic Tradition agree that she was assumed into heaven. Since she lived with John, I think he'd know what happened, wouldn't you? Now, one could argue that St. John would have put it in Scripture if it was so important, but that's just silly. St. John was writing about Jesus Christ. Marian doctrines are only defined when the Church sees that the time has come to define them...for instance, the Dogma of the Theotokos was defined when people were denying Christ's humanity and the Church decided there was no better way to advance His Human Nature than to declare that a human was the Mother of God. Likewise, with the Assumption, the Church decided that after the horrible atrocities committed against human dignity in the first half of the 20th century (Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Internment Camps, etc.), it was time to show the true dignity of humanity by declaring that the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was always faithful to God, was raised to be with Him in heaven...if a human can achieve that, then we must have dignity. St. John simply didn't see any reason to be explicit about it because he knew that if it ever needed to be stated explicitly, the Church would take care of it, but at the time, he had other work to do, more relevant to his own time.

Second, it is in Scripture...the woman in the sky, clothed with the sun.

Anyway, this is all an aside. I will not discuss it further, unless you want to make a new thread. This thread's topic is on the Immaculate Conception.

God bless,

Micah

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Bump

This is my fourth bump, Budge. You have still not proven anything concerning the Immaculate Conception. I've been more than patient. Please respond.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Bump

Forfeiting the debate, Budge?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Hi Budge, I know you're here. Please respond to this.

[kateri05]

bizzzzump

[T-Bone _]

Catholic Apologetic technique # 45:

Insist that your opponent actually engage in debate.

[kateri05]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1378966' date='Sep 5 2007, 06:33 PM']Catholic Apologetic technique # 45:

Insist that your opponent actually engage in debate.[/quote]

don't you think that's just a little unreasonable

[jeffpugh]

Cause I want her to put her money where her mouth is. Seriously, if she has the truth, it will prevail.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Ok because none of this is in the Bible, if they dont even know if she died or not, how do they KNOW she was ASSUMED?[/quote]

[quote]They didn't find any relics of her, so they just Assumed.[/quote]

if they had a thread of classic responses... this would be in it