zeyeon Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132113' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:07 PM'] Not standing in the way of a sinner? So if you see someone trying to kill another you will not stand in the way and stop them. You'll just let it happen. [/quote] Again you're polarizing my arguement. Of course I wouldn't let it happen. If there was something I could do about it I would. As I've said before... making it Illegal will NOT stop it. You can't stop every abortion. It's impossible and you have a messiah complex if you think otherwise. I support making it SAFE for the mother by regulating the procedure. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132113' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:07 PM'] There is NO safe procedure when murdering a unborn baby. None. [/quote] Talk to me when you've layed down on a sofa with your legs spread open and a spoon in your hand. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132113' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:07 PM']You support the New Age Slavery. Instead of hating black you hate the unborn, their not even human just aborted cells.[/quote] Are you able to debate without polarizing me? seriously this is accomplishing nothing if you are going to insist on painting me when you're colorblind. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132113' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:07 PM'] There is nothing simple with a confused and conflicted mind. I'm pro-choice, but I dont kill babies, I'm not a racist but a support slavery. I dont support sin but I wont stand in the way of it. [/quote] The reasons a woman get's an abortion are about as numerous as the grains of sand on a beach. I can in no way go through all of the reasons women have had abortions and say I supported them or not. You appear to be utterly incapable of holding more than 2 facts in your brain at once anyway so me doing so would be pointless. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132113' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:07 PM'] What cures? Name a few, real cures that have actually come from enslaving the unborn. [/quote] It's not enslaving them. It's using embroyes that were LITERALLY thrown out! what do you not get?! And as far as cures for stemcells..... Adult stemcells have already yeilded cures for leukemia and other blood disorders. However you can't cure the more complex brain disorders with adult stemcells, you need embryonic stemcells to treat desieses like parkonsons and spinal chord injuries. Impementation of embryonic stemcells is about 10 years away.
CatholicCid Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) [quote name='zeyeon' post='1132105' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:00 PM'] why would it drag off topic? you had to know that both racisim and the pro-choice / pro-life debate would come up. Alot of religious people that I know have been literally brainwashed into thinking that Pro-choice is synonomous with supporting the murder of babies. It is in no way that simple. I'm even against the death penalty. It's completely possible to be pro-choice for the RIGHT reasons. I just find it sad that the majority of pro-lifers have to polarize pro-choicers and lable them as baby killers in order to defend thier conviction. it's sad and ignorant. [/quote] As I'm not the topic started, I don't have to know anything : However, I must admit, I don't see how you can be "pro-choice" for the right reasons. As the topic starter stated a little later on, let's call the canidate anti-abortion. So, we can assume that the other canidate is pro-abortion (is that right catholicinsd?) I see abortion itself as murder and I do not believe in it, so I would be hesitant to vote for a pro-abortion canidate right off the bat. If the case were that and it comes down to voting for a pro-segregation/anti-abortion canidate or a pro-abortion canidate into an office that allows them to inflect their will on the populace, then that would be a tough decision to make for someone who sees abortion as murder (like myself). -- Well, I just read your next post Zeyeon and I'll refrain from most questions as I'm sure there are multiple topics on this... However, I have to ask for you to cite the source to the claim of "you can't cure the more complex brain disorders with adult stemcells". I'd be interested to read it. I'm betting either Nature or NAS. Edited November 30, 2006 by CatholicCid
suuran Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 I would seriously doubt the depth of his pro-life position, given that he supports other measures blatantly contrary to human dignity.
SJP Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 [quote name='zeyeon' post='1132105' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:00 PM'] why would it drag off topic? you had to know that both racisim and the pro-choice / pro-life debate would come up. Alot of religious people that I know have been literally brainwashed into thinking that Pro-choice is synonomous with supporting the murder of babies. It is in no way that simple. I'm even against the death penalty. It's completely possible to be pro-choice for the RIGHT reasons. I just find it sad that the majority of pro-lifers have to polarize pro-choicers and lable them as baby killers in order to defend thier conviction. it's sad and ignorant. [/quote] zeyeon said: "It's completely possible to be pro-choice for the RIGHT reasons." Can you please elaborate? What would you consider those "RIGHT reasons" to be? What "RIGHT reasons" could there be for taking the life of an unborn child?
zeyeon Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 [quote name='CatholicCid' post='1132132' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:31 PM'] Well, I just read your next post Zeyeon and I'll refrain from most questions as I'm sure there are multiple topics on this... However, I have to ask for you to cite the source to the claim of "you can't cure the more complex brain disorders with adult stemcells". I'd be interested to read it. I'm betting either Nature or NAS. [/quote] i'll be glad to link you homie. there are MANY institutions conducting research on the the benifits of the research... but here is one. [url="http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/stemcells/facts.html#3"]http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/stemcells/facts.html#3[/url] I also know USF is doing alot of research on it too, you may want to browse thier website as well. [quote name='Jalazar' post='1132139' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:38 PM'] I would seriously doubt the depth of his pro-life position, given that he supports other measures blatantly contrary to human dignity. [/quote] such as?
SJP Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 zeyeon said: "As I've said before... making it Illegal will NOT stop it. You can't stop every abortion. It's impossible and you have a messiah complex if you think otherwise. I support making it SAFE for the mother by regulating the procedure." Your argument is completely illogical. "making it Illegal will NOT stop it" You can say that for every crime that has ever been committed! By your logic, there is simply no need to have any laws at all. I am in no way attempting to polarize your argument. If we follow your line of reasoning, then it's completely valid to say that there is no need for any law. You're basically saying, People will break laws, therefore laws are of no use! If you believe that abortion is an intentional act to end the life of a human being, then you simply cannot support it. What could possibly be more important then the right to life? It is the right that all other rights proceed from, no life = no opportunity to enjoy any other rights! There's no room for wiggle!
zeyeon Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) [quote name='SJP' post='1132147' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:42 PM'] zeyeon said: "It's completely possible to be pro-choice for the RIGHT reasons." Can you please elaborate? What would you consider those "RIGHT reasons" to be? What "RIGHT reasons" could there be for taking the life of an unborn child? [/quote] The right reasons have nothing to do with the actual abortion. I believe the actual act of aborting a fetus is WRONG. However just as wrong is encroaching your belief's on other people by force. I will tell a woman all day long why I believe abortion is wrong, but at the end of the day, i'm not willing to block the door and control what she does with her body and her family, especially if she doesn't want to hear my advice or respect my opinion anyway. she will face teh concequences with God, not me. With that said... even if we make abortions illegal... it's going to happen anyway. The mothers may get infected by having this procedure done in uncertified institutions... and... the embryo cells will certainly go to waste. It's going to happen matter what. My position is to make something positive out of it. Edited November 30, 2006 by zeyeon
SJP Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 zeyeon said: "As I've said before... making it Illegal will NOT stop it. You can't stop every abortion. It's impossible and you have a messiah complex if you think otherwise. I support making it SAFE for the mother by regulating the procedure." Your argument is completely illogical. "making it Illegal will NOT stop it" You can say that for every crime that has ever been committed! By your logic, there is simply no need to have any laws at all. I am in no way attempting to polarize your argument. If we follow your line of reasoning, then it's completely valid to say that there is no need for any law. You're basically saying, People will break laws, therefore laws are of no use! If you believe that abortion is an intentional act to end the life of a human being, then you simply cannot support it. What could possibly be more important then the right to life? It is the right that all other rights proceed from, no life = no opportunity to enjoy any other rights! There's no room for wiggle!
CatholicCid Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) [quote name='zeyeon' post='1132161' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:58 PM'] i'll be glad to link you homie. there are MANY institutions conducting research on the the benifits of the research... but here is one. [url="http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/stemcells/facts.html#3"]http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/stemcells/facts.html#3[/url] I also know USF is doing alot of research on it too, you may want to browse thier website as well. [/quote] Ah, i thought you were refering to another issue for some reason. Thanks for the link though. Also, Sorry as this is off-topic too, here is an interesting link to a report just over a year old... The US media didn't really pick up on it, but most of the Scientific journals mentioned it I believe. Well, it's not a link to the article persay... You need access to a Medical Journal called Cythotherapy. If you want to reference the direct report, here is the article information [quote]Cytotherapy, (2005) Vol 7. No. 4, 368-373[/quote] It's about adult stem cells that were used in the treatment of a paraplegic woman. After 41 days, the injured site of the spinal cord showed regeneration. So, this field is still quite open to research in either way. Edited November 30, 2006 by CatholicCid
SJP Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 What is the greater wrong? pushing your beliefs on someone, or intentionally ending a human life? It's that simple.
SJP Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) zeyeon said: "I believe the actual act of aborting a fetus is WRONG. However just as wrong is encroaching your belief's on other people by force" Well I guess that's the answer to my question, sorry I missed it. But do you really believe that? Is it not logical to assume that certain rights take precedence over other rights? How could any right be greater then the right to life? As I stated earlier, it is the right that all other rights proceed from, no life = no opportunity to enjoy any other rights. Furthermore, if you're so concerned about pushing your beliefs on someone else because you're infringing on their right to make a decision, what about the Rights of the unborn child? What about their decisions? Edited November 30, 2006 by SJP
zeyeon Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) [quote name='SJP' post='1132175' date='Nov 30 2006, 06:05 PM'] zeyeon said: "As I've said before... making it Illegal will NOT stop it. You can't stop every abortion. It's impossible and you have a messiah complex if you think otherwise. I support making it SAFE for the mother by regulating the procedure." Your argument is completely illogical. "making it Illegal will NOT stop it" You can say that for every crime that has ever been committed! By your logic, there is simply no need to have any laws at all. I am in no way attempting to polarize your argument. If we follow your line of reasoning, then it's completely valid to say that there is no need for any law. You're basically saying, People will break laws, therefore laws are of no use! If you believe that abortion is an intentional act to end the life of a human being, then you simply cannot support it. What could possibly be more important then the right to life? It is the right that all other rights proceed from, no life = no opportunity to enjoy any other rights! There's no room for wiggle! [/quote] You're not understanding me, and you are polarizing my arguement. I do not support abortion. I do support a woman's right to choose what she does with her body and her faimly. I'm aware enough to know that not everybody on this planet thinks like I do. But those people are on thier own path, not mine. If it was my kid... you're absolutley right I'm fighting for the life of it. But where is the father in this situation? You're going to tell me that this girl can get pregnant... this guy can just leave and have no responsibility... and you're going to force her to carry the child for 9 months and and possibly raise it? There are alot of options a woman can take in that... including adoption... and I would definatley hope they would opt for that.... but not everyone does. Simple as that. Edited November 30, 2006 by zeyeon
rollingcatholic Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 [quote name='zeyeon' post='1132230' date='Nov 30 2006, 05:39 PM'] You're not understanding me, and you are polarizing my arguement. [/quote] Every time you say that, you sound like a broken record. You have said in so many words that making something illegal will not stop it. So why have any laws at all?
SJP Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) zeyeon said: "You're not understanding me" I understand you perfectly. You said: "I'm aware enough to know that not everybody on this planet thinks like I do" Is this the reason that you're pro-choice? People have different beliefs, therefore we can't judge anything or anybody? Well then lets conduct a little thought experiment that ties this thread together. What if a group of people decided that another group of people should be segregated or even disposed of? People have different beliefs right? Why would this be wrong? According to your line of thinking, it's not! People have different beliefs! Who are we to stop them. Edited November 30, 2006 by SJP
zeyeon Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 [quote name='RC _' post='1132245' date='Nov 30 2006, 06:49 PM'] Every time you say that, you sound like a broken record. You have said in so many words that making something illegal will not stop it. So why have any laws at all? [/quote] and every time you reply the hatred and contempt just emenates from your words. It's not about not having any laws. I'm not an anarchist... but I do believe in a seperation between church and state... YOU believe it should be a law. A good amount of people do not believe it should be one for VARIOUS amounts of reasons. I for one don't want to turn my country into a branch of the vatican. Maybe you do... that's cool you have that right. I'm never going to have an abortion... I'm a man. But When I don't give a woman the right to choose then I give up tollerance. Something alot of you need to learn to live with.
SJP Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) As Christians we believe in objective Truth, and we are called to bear witness to that Truth. So you'll understand why we have an obligation to stand up for the most innocent among us. On another note, you said: "But where is the father in this situation? You're going to tell me that this girl can get pregnant... this guy can just leave and have no responsibility... and you're going to force her to carry the child for 9 months and and possibly raise it?" I hear your concerns and agree with them. Never once have I said that carrying a child for 9 months is an easy thing to do or that dead beat dad's should be let off the hook, I'm more inclined to think that they should be in jail for a long long time. But no circumstance warrants the taking of an innocent life, none. Edited November 30, 2006 by SJP
rollingcatholic Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) [quote name='zeyeon' post='1132268' date='Nov 30 2006, 06:08 PM'] and every time you reply the hatred and contempt just emenates from your words. [/quote] Hate? Really? [quote] It's not about not having any laws. I'm not an anarchist... but I do believe in a separation between church and state... YOU believe it should be a law. A good amount of people do not believe it should be one for VARIOUS amounts of reasons. [/quote] It's not about a separation of church and state. It's about stopping murder of the unborn. No reason for an abortion free for all exists that will withstand any scrutiny. [quote] I for one don't want to turn my country into a branch of the Vatican. Maybe you do... that's cool [b]you have that right.[/b] [/quote] Then why are you [mod]Watch the language. --Era Might[/mod]about people wanting to end the murder of the unborn? [quote] I'm never going to have an abortion... I'm a man. But When I don't give a woman the right to choose then I give up tolerance. Something alot of you need to learn to live with. [/quote] You only tolerate that which is evil. Murder is evil. Give one good reason to tolerate murder. Edited December 1, 2006 by Era Might
zeyeon Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 [quote name='SJP' post='1132254' date='Nov 30 2006, 06:55 PM'] zeyeon said: "You're not understanding me" I understand you perfectly. You said: "I'm aware enough to know that not everybody on this planet thinks like I do" Is this the reason that you're pro-choice? People have different beliefs, therefore we can't judge anything or anybody? Well then lets conduct a little thought experiment that ties this thread together. What if a group of people decided that another group of people should be segregated or even disposed of? People have different beliefs right? Why would this be wrong? According to your line of thinking, it's not! People have different beliefs! Who are we to stop them. [/quote] are you really trying to resort to this as an attack on being pro choice? lol being tollerant to a girl that was rapped and cannot afford to go through the 9 months of carrying a child is alot different than being tollerant to a group of people who's sole purpose is to segregate other human beings based on skin color. It's not even in the same realm. How dare you try to use such a misshapen analogy to justify your intollerance. That's sick man lol.
Norseman82 Posted November 30, 2006 Posted November 30, 2006 [quote name='zeyeon' post='1132282' date='Nov 30 2006, 06:15 PM'] are you really trying to resort to this as an attack on being pro choice? lol being tollerant to a girl that was rapped and cannot afford to go through the 9 months of carrying a child is alot different than being tollerant to a group of people who's sole purpose is to segregate other human beings based on skin color. It's not even in the same realm. How dare you try to use such a misshapen analogy to justify your intollerance. That's sick man lol. [/quote] SJP was only carrying your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion if applied on a larger scale. And SJP was not referring to abortion here. It refers to an actual historical event from less than 100 years ago.
Winchester Posted December 1, 2006 Posted December 1, 2006 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1132039' date='Nov 30 2006, 02:42 PM'] I disagree, I base my point on the poll question "So, if there were a person running for political office and he was in favor of returning to Segregation, ([u]the US South prior to the 60's[/u]) but he was pro-life, would you vote for him?" Prior to the 60's the lynching of Black people in the Southern and border states was an institutionalized sometimes legal method used by whites to terrorize Blacks and maintain white supremacy. Lynching was used for most anything, including enforcing segregation. Lynching was a very big part of the segregated south, if a white racist candidate ran on returning the south to segregation he would not be pro-life. In the segregated south black men and women where conisder sub-human, just as pro-death people consider the unborn. [/quote] It was illegal as soon as slaves were emancipated and recognized as fully legally human. It was tolerated ast that because of a societal opinion. Segregation was a symptom of that opinion, but it does not follow that one may not be pro-life (here meaning one does not support legal abortion) if one believes in segregation. Lynching of blacks without a trial was not legal; it was tolerated. The person in question would not have capability or authority to allow the violation of the law to be tolerated as it was when there was an overwhelming societal tendency to murder black people and subject them to illegal treatment. [quote name='zeyeon' post='1132060' date='Nov 30 2006, 03:20 PM'] Are people REALLY voting YES on this?!?!?! Heck I'm pro choice and I would NEVER vote for a racist biggot just to advance that cause. Some of you people are incredible. [/quote] So you asked a loaded question.
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