New Documentary Exposes Evangelical Hypocrisy/ Bush War Crimes

[BrotherRaymond]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1163028' date='Jan 12 2007, 08:58 PM']
Christ turned the other cheek when someone hit his own self, sure. But what happened when the sellers were disrespecting the temple? You act like to be like Christ, we have to put up our hands and always let injustice overpower us. Christ was sent to die for our sins. We know this. Not everyone is called to die for their faith and in the name of all that is good. Some are called to defend it. God gave samson the strength to overpower his enemies. I pray, God-willing, that I would be given power as well if ever He called me to defend my country/faith/loved ones.
[/quote]


Samson was not a christian under the New Covenant following the commands of Christ. Jesus did not tell us to kill the Philistines the time for war has ended until his return. I am not saying to be passive. We are to be active, warriors, soldiers of Christ. Yet, we are to use the weapons God has given and not resort to the base methods and weapons of men. The weapons of men are powerless for the wrath of men does not produce the righteousness of God. Yes we are all called to die and suffer for the name of Jesus. He said a servant is not greater than the master, not to mention to die for Christ is the highest honor. Peter statesd Christ left us an example TO FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS. So I would say to you many are called but few are chosen. Strive to enter the narrow gate for many will not be able for broad is the way which leads to destruction.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I for one believe this is a just war. We are defending ourselves from an enemy that will not stop. They are driven by a radical ideology the likes of which we cant imagine. They want nothing less than the total destruction of: frist the USA and western Europe/free society and second, Christendom.[/quote]

But who is the enemy? The Iraqi government had absolutely nothing to do with al-Qaeda. It was evil in its own way, but no one as decadent and as irreligious as Saddam Hussein could ever have won the support, sympathy, or alliance of hardline Islamist groups. The invasion of Afghanistan made some sort of sense, as Osama bin Laden was known to be in hiding there. The invasion of Iraq made no sense at all.

Oh, Islamist terrorists are present in full force [i]now[/i]. But who let them in?

The war in Iraq is hypocritical, but I don't see how the hypocrisy can be fairly blamed on the evangelicals. I was interested to see that the trial of Saddam Hussein didn't touch on the £200,000 worth of thiodiglycol, one of two components of mustard gas that Britain exported to Baghdad in 1988, and another £50,000 worth of the same substances the next year. The full story of the atrocities Saddam Hussein committed against the Kurds has not been told, because that would implicate both Britain and America in supplying the means needed to gas them. He was a Middle Eastern ally once, and that piece of hypocrisy has been all but forgotten.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1161804' date='Jan 11 2007, 04:52 PM']
Not spam. Real Christians don't Choose [i][b][u]unjust[/u][/b][/i] war.
[/quote]


I fixed it for you. I agree that premetive 'strike' was not a portionate reason to go to war.

[BrotherRaymond]

I have yet to find a just war for Christians




[quote name='Theoketos' post='1163551' date='Jan 13 2007, 11:30 AM']
I fixed it for you. I agree that premetive 'strike' was not a portionate reason to go to war.
[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1165022' date='Jan 14 2007, 11:51 PM']
I have yet to find a just war for Christians
[/quote] I'd start with WWII, then I suggest you read a good history of the Catholic Crusades.

[BrotherRaymond]

I am of Jewish ancestry. My grandmother is a survivor of Dachau. I still do not believe WW2 was just because it was the result of rebellion. Let wicked nations kill each other we have no right. I have studied the crusades and they are no different than now. Rich men using religion as a political tool. Yes they were Catholic crusades not Christian. The doctrine being spread in that era was an abomination to God. You cannot defend your position from scripture only from your catholicism.




[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1165073' date='Jan 15 2007, 12:29 AM']
I'd start with WWII, then I suggest you read a good history of the Catholic Crusades.
[/quote]

[Veritas]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1165566' date='Jan 15 2007, 02:13 AM']
I am of Jewish ancestry. My grandmother is a survivor of Dachau. I still do not believe WW2 was just because it was the result of rebellion. Let wicked nations kill each other we have no right. I have studied the crusades and they are no different than now. Rich men using religion as a political tool. Yes they were Catholic crusades not Christian. The doctrine being spread in that era was an abomination to God. You cannot defend your position from scripture only from your catholicism.
[/quote]

+

Oh, boy... here we go! This is going to be fun. Pm'ers excitedly anticipating your defense. (Prepares for the onslaught of rationality in response )

[nighthaven]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1162902' date='Jan 12 2007, 05:58 PM']The crusades were a blot on the name of Christ and a most shameful chapter of the Christian church. It makes me wonder what bible you guys are reading, because you cannot justify them by the gospels.[/quote]

There are alot of things you can't justify by the bible alone, the divinity of Jesus Christ and The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit being of the same substance known as the Trinity. I've seen many Protestant theologians try to justify the above using the bible only, but fail in their attempt. Eventually you have to say, "That is what the early Christians believed," which is okay because us Catholics did believe in that. Though, we weren't using the bible to declare this, but Sacred Tradition as passed down by the Apostles.

We'd all be praising Allah and praying towards Mecca five times a day if the Crusades weren't fought to check the Muslim armies. Here is a website by Jimmy Akin that gives a rundown of the Crusades and why they were fought.

[url="http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/jakin_crusades_sept06.asp"]http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features200...ades_sept06.asp[/url]

[BrotherRaymond]

See your attitude demonstrates your faithlessness. God has written the end from the beginning. Read your bible. Christ rules not Islam and there is no need for us to fear. When the time is right He will return. Your defense is the result of trying to intellectualize the word of God which was the error of the Pharisee's. Repent









[quote name='Nighthaven' post='1165674' date='Jan 15 2007, 05:04 AM']
There are alot of things you can't justify by the bible alone, the divinity of Jesus Christ and The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit being of the same substance known as the Trinity. I've seen many Protestant theologians try to justify the above using the bible only, but fail in their attempt. Eventually you have to say, "That is what the early Christians believed," which is okay because us Catholics did believe in that. Though, we weren't using the bible to declare this, but Sacred Tradition as passed down by the Apostles.

We'd all be praising Allah and praying towards Mecca five times a day if the Crusades weren't fought to check the Muslim armies. Here is a website by Jimmy Akin that gives a rundown of the Crusades and why they were fought.

[url="http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/jakin_crusades_sept06.asp"]http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features200...ades_sept06.asp[/url]
[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1165566' date='Jan 15 2007, 03:13 AM']
I am of Jewish ancestry. My grandmother is a survivor of Dachau. I still do not believe WW2 was just because it was the result of rebellion. Let wicked nations kill each other we have no right. I have studied the crusades and they are no different than now. Rich men using religion as a political tool. Yes they were Catholic crusades not Christian. The doctrine being spread in that era was an abomination to God. You cannot defend your position from scripture only from your catholicism.
[/quote]
First of all Scriptures ARE CAtholic, where do you think they came from? The Bible was canoned by the Catholic Church. So if you are using the Bible you are using a Catholic book.

WWII was started by the imperialistic attacks by Germany to conquer Europe, which started the Great War. If people hadn't fought back we would all be speaking German.
THe Crusades were to defend Europe from the Muslim invasions.

Both were justified wars.

[kujo]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1165778' date='Jan 15 2007, 12:42 PM']
See your attitude demonstrates your faithlessness. God has written the end from the beginning. Read your bible. Christ rules not Islam and there is no need for us to fear. When the time is right He will return. Your defense is the result of trying to intellectualize the word of God which was the error of the Pharisee's. Repent
[/quote]
Indeed, Christ rules yesterday, today and forever; however, in the temporal sense, with Islamofascists declaring jihads on you and I, the person with a working brain must prepare to defend themself. If you want to throw your arms up in the air like pinko-liberal nut jobs like Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry, then you go right ahead. And if you want to judge my heart for not wanting you, me, my family, and your family to fall under the rule of the [i]shariah[/i], then you go right ahead.

My prayers are with you.

[img]http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/ostrich2.gif[/img]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I am of Jewish ancestry. My grandmother is a survivor of Dachau. I still do not believe WW2 was just because it was the result of rebellion.[/quote]

That argument comes perilously close to the line espoused by a subset of fundamentalist Christians: "The Jews deserved to die for rebelling against the Good News. The Holocaust was God's punishment." I've actually heard this argument used - and its core principle undermines the belief that its always wrong for a Christian to kill. The bystanders became as bad as killers in the Second World War, you know, because they did nothing to help the people who were being murdered. So you're faced with a choice: murder out of apathy or kill in defence of people who can't defend themselves. Neither is a nice option. But not all choices come with nice options.

[kujo]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1165870' date='Jan 15 2007, 03:11 PM']
So you're faced with a choice: murder out of apathy or kill in defence of people who can't defend themselves. Neither is a nice option. But not all choices come with nice options.
[/quote]

Reminds me of a quote from last night's episode of 24:

"It's neither right, nor wrong. It's just the only option we have."

[N/A Gone]

as a soldier and as someone with blood on their hands I will just sit and watch...



p.s.

Christ commanded his apostles to buy swords, to even sell their cloaks to afford to buy swords if they didn't have one. but I suppose He just wanted them to have good tools to cut their bread with

p.s.s.

Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66

Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

---CCC 2264-5

[BrotherRaymond]

See many of these responses demonstrate the famine of God's truth in this country.

Somewhere we have forgotten we are sojourners and pilgrims and we idolatrously worship the countries and flags we reside.

Somewhere we have forgotten we do not have a right to depose dictators Christ commanded us to lay down our lives and die for our enemies as he did.

Nationalism is serving two masters. To use Israel as the Christian standard for war is twisting the scripture as would be using the Old Covenant sacrifices and law for my salvation and justification.

Jesus WAS a pacifist. Thats what the Prince of Peace means, Prince of Pacificus (Pacifism).

Jesus walked into a town and the people refused to receive him. Two of his disciples wanted to call fire from heaven as elisha did (The believed in using Old Covenant Examples as some here) and Jesus rebuked them. he said "You do not know what spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy life but to save it".

Yes one day his grace will end and he will return as the lion of the tribe of Judah, robe soaked in the blood of the wicked. That day is not yet come and we are commanded to follow in His steps.

The second I shoot a person I end their chance to get saved and deny Jesus Christ and his mission. The professed church has failed America in a dark hour. May God grant repentance.

We have an example in Hitler what happens when the church becomes cowards and swears allegiance to a wicked state.

As for love of self being anything but sinful,Paul said part of the Apostasy in the last days would be that men were lovers of self. Jesus told his disciples to buy swords and then they pulled out two and he said it is enough. So two swords were enough for twelve disciples. Let some soldiers go on patrol in Iraq with two guns.

You assume that not acting or acting with violence are the only options here. There are multitudes of options for any given situation. Jesus did not demonstrate your arguments. The pure Holy one of God let wicked men torture and kill Him, after an illegal trial and then said we were to do the same. If you say you love Christ and do not obey his commands you are deceived. There is a difference between personal self defense and killing for the state or an apostate church, and any church that would wield the sword is apostate.

Again you can defend yourselves, go to war, beat people up, arm yourself to the teeth in fear on men, but don't say its in any form of Christian practice because you are mistaken.

Remember after he told the m to get a sword he told them to put it away. The last command trumps the first. It was an example and fulfillment of prophecy. You guys want to use all this human wisdom and Paul said your human wisdom is foolishness to God. When you put your own understanding, rhetoric, and darkened wisdom above God's word you make yourself a fool. For you soldier I beg you to repent. You are in sin.

Mo

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1166352' date='Jan 15 2007, 09:18 PM']
See many of these responses demonstrate the famine of God's truth in this country.

Somewhere we have forgotten we are sojourners and pilgrims and we idolatrously worship the countries and flags we reside.

Somewhere we have forgotten we do not have a right to depose dictators Christ commanded us to lay down our lives and die for our enemies as he did.

Nationalism is serving two masters. To use Israel as the Christian standard for war is twisting the scripture as would be using the Old Covenant sacrifices and law for my salvation and justification.

Jesus WAS a pacifist. Thats what the Prince of Peace means, Prince of Pacificus (Pacifism).

Jesus walked into a town and the people refused to receive him. Two of his disciples wanted to call fire from heaven as elisha did (The believed in using Old Covenant Examples as some here) and Jesus rebuked them. he said "You do not know what spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy life but to save it".

Yes one day his grace will end and he will return as the lion of the tribe of Judah, robe soaked in the blood of the wicked. That day is not yet come and we are commanded to follow in His steps.

The second I shoot a person I end their chance to get saved and deny Jesus Christ and his mission. The professed church has failed America in a dark hour. May God grant repentance.

We have an example in Hitler what happens when the church becomes cowards and swears allegiance to a wicked state.

As for love of self being anything but sinful,Paul said part of the Apostasy in the last days would be that men were lovers of self. Jesus told his disciples to buy swords and then they pulled out two and he said it is enough. So two swords were enough for twelve disciples. Let some soldiers go on patrol in Iraq with two guns.

You assume that not acting or acting with violence are the only options here. There are multitudes of options for any given situation. Jesus did not demonstrate your arguments. The pure Holy one of God let wicked men torture and kill Him, after an illegal trial and then said we were to do the same. If you say you love Christ and do not obey his commands you are deceived. There is a difference between personal self defense and killing for the state or an apostate church, and any church that would wield the sword is apostate.

Again you can defend yourselves, go to war, beat people up, arm yourself to the teeth in fear on men, but don't say its in any form of Christian practice because you are mistaken.

Remember after he told the m to get a sword he told them to put it away. The last command trumps the first. It was an example and fulfillment of prophecy. You guys want to use all this human wisdom and Paul said your human wisdom is foolishness to God. When you put your own understanding, rhetoric, and darkened wisdom above God's word you make yourself a fool. For you soldier I beg you to repent. You are in sin.

Mo
[/quote]
You are entitled to your opinion.
We have a right to protect ourselves and a right and duty to defend the oppressed.

[Socrates]

[quote] Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.[/quote] ~ Matthew 10:34

Nowhere is pacifism preached in the Bible.

All you are doing here is spouting off your own opinion as if it were the Word of God.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Socrates

[BrotherRaymond]

The sword is the Word of God as outlined in Ephesians 6. The bible explains these things. You have not even refuted the above points because you cannot. Here are a few more to consider.


Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men Dearly beloved, [b]avenge not yourselves[/b], but [rather] [b]give place unto wrath[/b]: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Romans 12:17-21

To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to[b] guide our feet into the way of peace.[/b]

eirene {i-ray'-nay: 1) a state of national tranquillity

a) exemption from the rage and havoc of war

2) peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord

3) security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)

4) of the Messiah's peace

a) the way that leads to peace (salvation)

5) of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is

6) the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

Pacifism comes from the latin word pacific:

pacific Look up pacific at Dictionary.com
1548, "tending to make peace," from M.Fr. pacifique, from L. pacificus "peaceful, peace-making," from pax (gen. pacis) "peace" + root of facere "to make" (see factitious). Meaning "peaceful, calm" is first recorded 1633. The Pacific Ocean (1660) is from M.L. Pacificum, neut. of L. pacificus, so called c.1500 by Magellan when he sailed into it and found it calmer than the stormy Atlantic.



pacifism is taught throughout the bible. Here are some more.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14;27

The word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, [b]preaching peace by Jesus Christ:[/b] (he is Lord of all:) Acts 10:36

[b]The disposition of wicked men.
Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:[/b]And the way of peace have they not known:

Those who choose war do not KNOW the way of peace nor the Prince of pacificus (pacifism) peace.

There are many more which far outweigh some twisting of scriptures about swords. Which do you desire more, to follow Jesus or your religion. The Pharisee's chose religion over Messiah. What will you choose. God be with you please pray about it.

[cmotherofpirl]

Jesus founded our religion in 33 AD.
He did not preach being a pacifist.

[BrotherRaymond]

Right. What is your authority? When you need a word from God, where do you go? When you struggle with issues of life what is your guide? I do not understand how you cannot clearly see these things. How do you justify violence in light of the above scriptures? How can you defend your life when your master did not and told you to do the same? Jesus, nowhere commanded us to fight for the wicked. he did command us to serve, build his church, deny ourselves, lay down our lives, and suffer for his name. Yet you insist this is not so. Who is your Lord?





[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1166478' date='Jan 15 2007, 11:46 PM']
Jesus founded our religion in 33 AD.
He did not preach being a pacifist.
[/quote]