New Documentary Exposes Evangelical Hypocrisy/ Bush War Crimes

[cmotherofpirl]

» SECTION TWO: THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
» CHAPTER TWO: YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF Jesus said to his disciples: "Love one another even as I have loved you." 1
» ARTICLE 5: THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT
» III. SAFEGUARDING PEACE



2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." 106

read:
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4644"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4644[/url]

[BrotherRaymond]

My point exactly you teach the traditions of man as if they are the commands of God. This is a grave error. To love our neighbor is a good point why we should not be in Iraq. We have destroyed that country. Stealing oil under a guise of being the liberators is not loving your neighbor. Saturating the country with depleted uranium, sanctioning and starving the populace for years in violation of international conducts of war is not loving your neighbor. Carpet bombing residential areas, subjection hundreds of thousands of youth to murder, pillage, and organized thievery does not reflect the commands.

We are to liberate people with the weapons God has given us. Why would you usurp Gods command for men's?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1166530' date='Jan 16 2007, 01:05 AM']
My point exactly you teach the traditions of man as if they are the commands of God. This is a grave error. To love our neighbor is a good point why we should not be in Iraq. We have destroyed that country. Stealing oil under a guise of being the liberators is not loving your neighbor. Saturating the country with depleted uranium, sanctioning and starving the populace for years in violation of international conducts of war is not loving your neighbor. Carpet bombing residential areas, subjection hundreds of thousands of youth to murder, pillage, and organized thievery does not reflect the commands.

We are to liberate people with the weapons God has given us. Why would you usurp Gods command for men's?
[/quote]
The Tradtions of Catholic Church as found in the Early Church Fathers gave you the Bible, containing the teachings of God. The Church is the pillar and foundation [that is bible quote]

[Veritas]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1166352' date='Jan 15 2007, 08:18 PM']
See many of these responses demonstrate the famine of God's truth in this country.

Somewhere we have forgotten we are sojourners and pilgrims and we idolatrously worship the countries and flags we reside.

Somewhere we have forgotten we do not have a right to depose dictators Christ commanded us to lay down our lives and die for our enemies as he did.

Nationalism is serving two masters. To use Israel as the Christian standard for war is twisting the scripture as would be using the Old Covenant sacrifices and law for my salvation and justification.

Jesus WAS a pacifist. Thats what the Prince of Peace means, Prince of Pacificus (Pacifism).

Jesus walked into a town and the people refused to receive him. Two of his disciples wanted to call fire from heaven as elisha did (The believed in using Old Covenant Examples as some here) and Jesus rebuked them. he said "You do not know what spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy life but to save it".

Yes one day his grace will end and he will return as the lion of the tribe of Judah, robe soaked in the blood of the wicked. That day is not yet come and we are commanded to follow in His steps.

The second I shoot a person I end their chance to get saved and deny Jesus Christ and his mission. The professed church has failed America in a dark hour. May God grant repentance.

We have an example in Hitler what happens when the church becomes cowards and swears allegiance to a wicked state.

As for love of self being anything but sinful,Paul said part of the Apostasy in the last days would be that men were lovers of self. Jesus told his disciples to buy swords and then they pulled out two and he said it is enough. So two swords were enough for twelve disciples. Let some soldiers go on patrol in Iraq with two guns.

You assume that not acting or acting with violence are the only options here. There are multitudes of options for any given situation. Jesus did not demonstrate your arguments. The pure Holy one of God let wicked men torture and kill Him, after an illegal trial and then said we were to do the same. If you say you love Christ and do not obey his commands you are deceived. There is a difference between personal self defense and killing for the state or an apostate church, and any church that would wield the sword is apostate.

Again you can defend yourselves, go to war, beat people up, arm yourself to the teeth in fear on men, but don't say its in any form of Christian practice because you are mistaken.

Remember after he told the m to get a sword he told them to put it away. The last command trumps the first. It was an example and fulfillment of prophecy. You guys want to use all this human wisdom and Paul said your human wisdom is foolishness to God. When you put your own understanding, rhetoric, and darkened wisdom above God's word you make yourself a fool. For you soldier I beg you to repent. You are in sin.

Mo
[/quote]

You're spouting a lot of emotion, but you haven't directly answered any counter-claims made to your initial post yet! So, I'll just wait for that


[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1166490' date='Jan 15 2007, 11:13 PM']
Right. What is your authority? When you need a word from God, where do you go? When you struggle with issues of life what is your guide? I do not understand how you cannot clearly see these things. How do you justify violence in light of the above scriptures? How can you defend your life when your master did not and told you to do the same? Jesus, nowhere commanded us to fight for the wicked. he did command us to serve, build his church, deny ourselves, lay down our lives, and suffer for his name. Yet you insist this is not so. Who is your Lord?
[/quote]

+

Again, where do you think the Bible came from? Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

[BrotherRaymond]

The bible is God Breathed. Those who know Jesus hear his voice is all I can say. The early Church fathers were majority pacifist, it was Constantine the apostate which gave us warmongering Christianity followed by Augustine. The council in 325 just recognized books that were unofficially canonized. The Constantinian church gave us nothing. The church is the pillar, but it is the body of Christ not a codex of traditions passed down and ingrained with paganism, idolatry, false doctrine, and homosexuality.



[quote name='Veritas' post='1166541' date='Jan 16 2007, 01:26 AM']
You're spouting a lot of emotion, but you haven't directly answered any counter-claims made to your initial post yet! So, I'll just wait for that
+

Again, where do you think the Bible came from? Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.
[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1166530' date='Jan 16 2007, 12:05 AM']
My point exactly you teach the traditions of man as if they are the commands of God. This is a grave error. To love our neighbor is a good point why we should not be in Iraq. We have destroyed that country. Stealing oil under a guise of being the liberators is not loving your neighbor. Saturating the country with depleted uranium, sanctioning and starving the populace for years in violation of international conducts of war is not loving your neighbor. Carpet bombing residential areas, subjection hundreds of thousands of youth to murder, pillage, and organized thievery does not reflect the commands.

We are to liberate people with the weapons God has given us. Why would you usurp Gods command for men's?
[/quote]

Sir, are you over there? Better yet, do you have military access to any information? Or do you just spend too much attention on the media? You sound like you have a little bit of a bias understanding here. I do not want to justify the war, just curious if you actually have any idea of what you are talking about outside of CNN


[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1166591' date='Jan 16 2007, 03:39 AM']
The bible is God Breathed. Those who know Jesus hear his voice is all I can say. The early Church fathers were majority pacifist, it was Constantine the apostate which gave us warmongering Christianity followed by Augustine. The council in 325 just recognized books that were unofficially canonized. The Constantinian church gave us nothing. The church is the pillar, but it is the body of Christ not a codex of traditions passed down and ingrained with paganism, idolatry, false doctrine, and homosexuality.
[/quote]

Let me guess, never took a patristics class? This sounds like the discovery channel, or a cut/paste from a vengeful blog. As a protestant (which you appear to be) your theology would be shattered without the influence of augustine.

[BrotherRaymond]

I am not a protestant. I do not protest the Catholic church I see it as a religion with Christian themes like mormonism which does have Christians in the church who dismiss much of the paganism and idol worshipping. I am just a Christian. Augustines theology does not influence my thinking I take what I learn fromt he Holy Spirit (The one who is to lead us into all truth apart from patristic classes) but I have studied the early church extensively.
Agustine was the first to actually address Just War because for once the Church had power rather than persecution. It had already been corrupt and Augustine persecuted Pelagius because he pointed out the corrupt priest. Agustine is what people use to justify loving the world and using the worlds means to spread the gospel

As for your other question watch the documentary I produced Which goes through Just War theory and demonstrates the unjustness of Iraq even though some here think otherwise) and you can decide for yourself how up to date my info is.


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
NEW FILM EXPOSES EVANGELICAL HYPOCRISY IN WAR SUPPORT AND OUTLINES BUSH ADMINISTRATION DECEPTIONS/WAR CRIMES


Iraq: Death of Reason has now been released to the public by Voice in the wilderness productions. This stunning new film attacks the Evangelical Church’s error in supporting the war in Iraq. Produced and directed by Raymond Schwab and Elliott Nesch of Beit Shalom Ministries, Iraq: The Death of reason addresses just war theory, Abu Ghraib torture, depleted uranium, the deceptions sold to the American public by the Bush administration, false flag operations, war profiteers and calls the Christian church to reconsider their position, since prior to invasion 79% of evangelicals supported military action.
In Feb 2007 Raymond Schwab and Elliott Nesch will walk from Denver to DC to protest publicly the Christian support. This film is being offered for any size donation to their ministry to help raise funds for the upcoming walk.

For more info go to www.beitshalomministries.org


To view the film for free online go to:

Part 1: [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4285458293746631497&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...31497&hl=en[/url]
Part 2: [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8147818935080796713&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8...96713&hl=en[/url]
Conclusion: [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3845643139747749983&hl=en"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=38...49983&hl=en[/url]

[N/A Gone]

oh, gotcha. So when it comes to the history of your faith you went the whole "revisionist history" route. Better to just deny and scream than to actually work through history.

Sir, I was an active duty special forces soldier (* as I cited earlier) I do not need to watch your entire documentary to know that you lack credibility and just have an agenda.

[BrotherRaymond]

Maybe its hard for you to admit you were wrong, especially if you took someones life. Its hard enough doing it, but then finding out you helped support evil rather than good has to be a great blow to your spirit. I pray for you to repent. I am not a revisionist. I was a history major. I realize history is manipulated and interpreted by the victors. There are many stories. if you read a catholic history it has a different perspective from a Protestant, Anabaptist etc. I take from all to see how Christian thought has developed and came to the conclusion, as Jesus said, the way truly is narrow.






[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1167014' date='Jan 16 2007, 03:59 PM']
oh, gotcha. So when it comes to the history of your faith you went the whole "revisionist history" route. Better to just deny and scream than to actually work through history.

Sir, I was an active duty special forces soldier (* as I cited earlier) I do not need to watch your entire documentary to know that you lack credibility and just have an agenda.
[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

I do not believe I was wrong. I am politically apathetic--highly influenced by theopolitical imagination. So I am not trying to push a political agenda, and I feel that political based wars would be wrong. I am not promoting that.

The fact of the matter is you are one man. A passionate man with an obvious agenda. I do not care if you are a history major, if you do not understand the eccesiological progression of your own faith then you either are not educated or you are a revisionist. If you feel different. Prove it, cite some patristics

[BrotherRaymond]

Historical progression of which branch of the Christian faith? Each era brings a different need and dynamic. Thats why we have so many denominations. people follow the men who met the need. I have a link on my website to the complete early church fathers if you desire to check it out. They are not my authority but it is interesting to check out. If you don't understand that the majority of Christianity was pacifistic for almost 300 years I don't care what patristic class you took your teachers lied to you to support their own agenda. I also think it is pretty irresponsible to be politically apathetic when you are being asked to kill people. Soldiers were never meant to be blind, robot, order followers. They are another check and balance against tyranny and corruption, unfortunately to many have forgotten that in their blood lust.

quote name='Revprodeji' date='Jan 16 2007, 05:41 PM' post='1167220']
I do not believe I was wrong. I am politically apathetic--highly influenced by theopolitical imagination. So I am not trying to push a political agenda, and I feel that political based wars would be wrong. I am not promoting that.

The fact of the matter is you are one man. A passionate man with an obvious agenda. I do not care if you are a history major, if you do not understand the eccesiological progression of your own faith then you either are not educated or you are a revisionist. If you feel different. Prove it, cite some patristics
[/quote]

[N/A Gone]

[quote]Each era brings a different need and dynamic. Thats why we have so many denominations. people follow the men who met the need.[/quote]

Wow...

I guess that is relative truth at its best. Anyone actually promote this view? I could imagine the appendage to the Nicene creed "one*, holy, catholic, apostolic" (*unless for our luxary we break off for a little different flavor; Who needs the church christ taught, i wanna follow this guy over here, or this guy over here)


[quote]I have a link on my website to the complete early church fathers if you desire to check it out. They are not my authority but it is interesting to check out. If you don't understand that the majority of Christianity was pacifistic for almost 300 years I don't care what patristic class you took your teachers lied to you to support their own agenda.[/quote]

The fathers would not promote war; but they also were not in the role where it was their responsability for civil protection.

My patristics teacher is a pacifict. He did not lie to me, he did not promote his agenda with a bias as you have sir.


[quote]I also think it is pretty irresponsible to be politically apathetic when you are being asked to kill people. Soldiers were never meant to be blind, robot, order followers. They are another check and balance against tyranny and corruption, unfortunately to many have forgotten that in their blood lust.[/quote]

I am not longer in a position where I will kill someone, that was a while ago. SInce then I have become politcally apathetic. But I was never in the military to promote a civic view, rather to protect and defend.

[BrotherRaymond]

Right, Christ didn't write the Nicene creed. Creeds came along later. Creeds came with religion and religion is what Christ opposed most. people have murdered over creeds. The Romans Catholic Church has not been the church of Christ. I suppose you are implying the only true church through the ages has been the Roman church. Thats foolishness.Plus soldiers are not trained to protect and defend, thats the police. Soldiers are trained to kill for the state, even though they swear to defend the constitution.





[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1168955' date='Jan 18 2007, 11:45 AM']
Wow...

I guess that is relative truth at its best. Anyone actually promote this view? I could imagine the appendage to the Nicene creed "one*, holy, catholic, apostolic" (*unless for our luxary we break off for a little different flavor; Who needs the church christ taught, i wanna follow this guy over here, or this guy over here)
The fathers would not promote war; but they also were not in the role where it was their responsability for civil protection.

My patristics teacher is a pacifict. He did not lie to me, he did not promote his agenda with a bias as you have sir.
I am not longer in a position where I will kill someone, that was a while ago. SInce then I have become politcally apathetic. But I was never in the military to promote a civic view, rather to protect and defend.
[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1169852' date='Jan 19 2007, 12:46 AM']
Right, Christ didn't write the Nicene creed. Creeds came along later. Creeds came with religion and religion is what Christ opposed most. people have murdered over creeds. The Romans Catholic Church has not been the church of Christ. I suppose you are implying the only true church through the ages has been the Roman church. Thats foolishness.Plus soldiers are not trained to protect and defend, thats the police. Soldiers are trained to kill for the state, even though they swear to defend the constitution.
[/quote]
Jesus Christ start the religion known as christianity, He founded the Catholic Church in AD 33. We are not implying it we are stating it: there is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church , commonly known as the Catholic Church. Only one other group can come close and that is the Orthodox who split off 1000 years ago. No other group came along after that until a monk went mad, and a king put political ends ahead of his faith.

[BrotherRaymond]

Right. Well, good luck with that one. I agree there is one Church but the Romans Catholic left it a long time ago when they started teaching the traditions of men as the commands of God. I am speaking to Christians not catholics, which I know there are some who may be in your church but not of it. Catholicism is not Christianity. It is paganism with Jesus frosting on top.




[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1169858' date='Jan 19 2007, 12:52 AM']
Jesus Christ start the religion known as christianity, He founded the Catholic Church in AD 33. We are not implying it we are stating it: there is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church , commonly known as the Catholic Church. Only one other group can come close and that is the Orthodox who split off 1000 years ago. No other group came along after that until a monk went mad, and a king put political ends ahead of his faith.
[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1169884' date='Jan 19 2007, 01:16 AM']
Right. Well, good luck with that one. I agree there is one Church but the Romans Catholic left it a long time ago when they started teaching the traditions of men as the commands of God. I am speaking to Christians not catholics, which I know there are some who may be in your church but not of it. Catholicism is not Christianity. It is paganism with Jesus frosting on top.
[/quote]
You forget sir, that you have a Bible to thump because the Catholic Church chose and translated the books that are in it. THe Bible which was canoned 400 YEARS after Jesus died, it is a TRADITION of men.

Since you dismiss the Catholic Church, yo can no longer use a Bible in your arguments, since its a Catholic book .
All Catholics are christians, since they belong to the Church founded by Jesus Christ. SAdly not all christians are Catholic.

[BrotherRaymond]

I have a bible to thump because brave men and women resisted the Catholic church and were slaughtered for it. If it was not for brave men like Tyndale the mass would still be in Latin, the populace ignorant of the word of God, the priest corrupt and making merchandise of God's grace by selling indulgences and other foul things. The Catholic Church destroyed the word of God. They were so mad they lost their oppressive power they dug Tyndale up decades alter and burned him. After that they lost power because of their corruption. So no, I do not applaud the Catholic church for murderously trying to stop the spread of the Gospel.










[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1169894' date='Jan 19 2007, 01:31 AM']
You forget sir, that you have a Bible to thump because the Catholic Church chose and translated the books that are in it. THe Bible which was canoned 400 YEARS after Jesus died, it is a TRADITION of men.

Since you dismiss the Catholic Church, yo can no longer use a Bible in your arguments, since its a Catholic book .
All Catholics are christians, since they belong to the Church founded by Jesus Christ. SAdly not all christians are Catholic.
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='BrotherRaymond' post='1171439' date='Jan 20 2007, 05:15 PM']
I have a bible to thump because brave men and women resisted the Catholic church and were slaughtered for it. If it was not for brave men like Tyndale the mass would still be in Latin, the populace ignorant of the word of God, the priest corrupt and making merchandise of God's grace by selling indulgences and other foul things. The Catholic Church destroyed the word of God. They were so mad they lost their oppressive power they dug Tyndale up decades alter and burned him. After that they lost power because of their corruption. So no, I do not applaud the Catholic church for murderously trying to stop the spread of the Gospel.
[/quote]
Are you on here to debate, or just to spew mindless and false anti-Catholic nonsense?

This kind of garbage is not going to fool anyone with an actual knowledge of Church history. The Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ Himself. Your anti-Catholic protestantism can be traced back only to Martin Luther in 1517.

Here's an article telling the real story of William Tyndale:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0212fea3.asp"][b]Tyndale's Heresy: The Real Story of the 'Father of the English Bible'[/b][/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]The Catholic Church destroyed the word of God.[/quote]

Forgive me for going off at a tangent, but I have a cheering story that I'd like to share with you all on this topic. (Well, it will probably cheer those of you who are Catholics.) I have a close friend who has been considering converting to Catholicism for a long time, but her family's anti-Catholic brand of evangelicalism made this extremely difficult, especially as she is disabled and is dependent on them to care for her. In late November she came to England on a visit. I gave her a rosary, an icon of the Mother and Child, and a Catholic Bible for Christmas. When she got home she was frightened of what her parents would say when they found the things, but her mother only commented on how beautiful the 'picture' and the 'necklace' were.

A few weeks later she went to spend a few days with her grandmother (who is the most virulently anti-Catholic person in the whole family). She had her new Catholic Bible with her, and she accidentally left it lying around. Her grandmother discovered it and curiously started to dip into the books that Martin Luther cut out during the Reformation. When my friend woke up from her nap, her grandmother exclaimed, "I can't understand why these books aren't in every Bible! Can I borrow this? I'd like to read it some more." Which is a strange request coming from a woman who believes the Church to be a pagan institution.

Truth speaks for itself.

[SJRod55]

And what exactly makes for a 'Just war'?