What If Billy Graham

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1174293' date='Jan 23 2007, 08:17 PM']
Most Greek Orthodox, though, do know that the teachings of their false church deny the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church and are therefore not ignorant.
[/quote]
Most of them do not realize the authority of the Catholic Church over Orthodoxy, though, and since that is foundational, their knowledge that their doctrines are against ours is meaningless. They may well know that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are opposed, but unless they see that Catholicism is right or that the Catholic Church has supreme authority on earth, they will not be denying what they know to be the truth (rather, they will be denying what they think is only a different opinion or what they ignorantly think is false) and thus do not have full knowledge of what they are doing.

[ronyodish]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1174184' date='Jan 23 2007, 06:52 PM']
That's anachronistic. The Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility were both dogmatically defined well after the schism occured. You can't fault them for denying defined dogma if it wasn't dogmatically defined then. However, you can fault them for denying doctrine, but only in so much as they should know better, which is something you can't judge.

Anyway, it's not schism or heresy that negates the ability to consecrate. The Orthodox are in Schism and they can consecrate; the Assyrian Church of the East is Nestorian (heretical) and they can consecrate (at least according to my theology teacher, who cited the CDF). What keeps one from consecrating is a lack of valid priesthood. If your theology of the priesthood keeps you from properly understanding its nature in order to know what you're entering into as a priest (thus, nullifying your ordination) or if you do not have apostolic succession (a line of bishops coming from the Apostles, thus having the power to pass on priestly power), you can't consecrate the Eucharist.
Anglicans do not have legitimage ordinations or legitimate sacraments, save Baptism and, if done with the right understanding of the sacrament, marriage (since marriage is conferred by the wife on the husband and the husband on the wife, not by the priest, except in the Eastern Rites, I believe).
[/quote]

Raphael,

Concerning the Assyrian Church of the East, the Catholic Church no longer considers them as representing the Nestorian heresy. In 1994, the Holy Father JPII and the Patriarch of the Assyrian Church Mar Kh’nanya Dinkha IV signed a Common Christological Declaration in which they stated: "Whatever our Christological divergences have been, we experience ourselves united today in the confession of the same faith in the Son of God who became man so that we might become children of God by his grace". You can read the whole document right here: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...-church_en.html[/url]

Concerning their ability to consecrate the Eucharist (Which they call Qurbana in Aramaic), your theology professor is probably reffering to this: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...-assira_en.html[/url]
Specifically, #3. The Anaphora of Addai and Mari

Concerning the Sacrament of Marriage (or Mystery of Crowning as it is called in the East), it is true that when it is celebrated in the Eastern Catholic Churches, in addition to the mutual consent given by the spouses, the blessing of the priest is necessary for its validity. The CCC mentions this in paragraph 1623.

God bless,

Rony

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Rony Odish' post='1174388' date='Jan 23 2007, 09:42 PM']
Raphael,

Concerning the Assyrian Church of the East, the Catholic Church no longer considers them as representing the Nestorian heresy. In 1994, the Holy Father JPII and the Patriarch of the Assyrian Church Mar Kh’nanya Dinkha IV signed a Common Christological Declaration in which they stated: "Whatever our Christological divergences have been, we experience ourselves united today in the confession of the same faith in the Son of God who became man so that we might become children of God by his grace". You can read the whole document right here: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_11111994_assyrian-church_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...-church_en.html[/url]

Concerning their ability to consecrate the Eucharist (Which they call Qurbana in Aramaic), your theology professor is probably reffering to this: [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontific...-assira_en.html[/url]
Specifically, #3. The Anaphora of Addai and Mari

Concerning the Sacrament of Marriage (or Mystery of Crowning as it is called in the East), it is true that when it is celebrated in the Eastern Catholic Churches, in addition to the mutual consent given by the spouses, the blessing of the priest is necessary for its validity. The CCC mentions this in paragraph 1623.

God bless,

Rony
[/quote]

Thank you. I knew that our view of them as Nestorian had been somewhat ambiguous and was more due to semantics, but it's nice to see that there is an official document on the matter.

God bless,

Micah

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1174300' date='Jan 23 2007, 08:23 PM']
Most of them do not realize the authority of the Catholic Church over Orthodoxy, though, and since that is foundational, their knowledge that their doctrines are against ours is meaningless. They may well know that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are opposed, but unless they see that Catholicism is right or that the Catholic Church has supreme authority on earth, they will not be denying what they know to be the truth (rather, they will be denying what they think is only a different opinion or what they ignorantly think is false) and thus do not have full knowledge of what they are doing.
[/quote]

Supreme authority on earth. . .

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Read 1st Samuel 8:5-18, and see what YHWH thinks of any human authority on the earth.

And they said unto him: 'Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways; now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.' But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said: '[b]Give us a king to judge us.[/b]' And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel: 'Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee,[b] but they have rejected Me, that I should not be king over them[/b]. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, in that they have forsaken Me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice; howbeit thou shalt earnestly forewarn them, and shalt declare unto them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.' And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said: [b]'This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them unto him, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint them unto him for captains of thousands, and captains of fifties; and to plow his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and the instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your flocks; and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king whom ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not answer you in that day.' [/b]

Any human lead authority that is the ultimate power on the earth is evil in the sight of YHWH. He considers such people usurpers of his rule of the people. Sorry, only YHWH is the supreme authority on the earth.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174406' date='Jan 23 2007, 10:07 PM']
Supreme authority on earth. . .

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Read 1st Samuel 8:5-18, and see what YHWH thinks of any human authority on the earth.

And they said unto him: 'Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways; now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.' But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said: '[b]Give us a king to judge us.[/b]' And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel: 'Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee,[b] but they have rejected Me, that I should not be king over them[/b]. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, in that they have forsaken Me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. Now therefore hearken unto their voice; howbeit thou shalt earnestly forewarn them, and shalt declare unto them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.' And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said: [b]'This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them unto him, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint them unto him for captains of thousands, and captains of fifties; and to plow his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and the instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your flocks; and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king whom ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not answer you in that day.' [/b]

Any human lead authority that is the ultimate power on the earth is evil in the sight of YHWH. He considers such people usurpers of his rule of the people. Sorry, only YHWH is the supreme authority on the earth.
[/quote]

Since God isn't here sitting on His Throne on earth, somebody has to be in charge, and when it comes to faith and morals, that is the Pope.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1174412' date='Jan 23 2007, 10:12 PM']
Since God isn't here sitting on His Throne on earth, somebody has to be in charge, and when it comes to faith and morals, that is the Pope.
[/quote]

He never needed one for the original nation of Israel. Or why would the Israelites be asking for a King.

And if he didn't think he needed someone on a throne being a moral authority in the old testament, then why would he need one in the new testament. . .

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174431' date='Jan 23 2007, 10:18 PM']
He never needed one for the original nation of Israel. Or why would the Israelites be asking for a King.

And if he didn't think he needed someone on a throne being a moral authority in the old testament, then why would he need one in the new testament. . .
[/quote]
Because Jesus founded a Church, and somebody has to be in charge .

[Thy Geekdom Come]

St. Paul said that we are all members of the Body of Christ. Someone has to be the brain. Since all priests are ordained into Christ's priesthood, it makes sense that they are all members of the head, who is Christ. Therefore, there are those who speak the Gospel, those who hear the needs of the Church, those who see the Christian vocation, etc., all in the priesthood.

The pope's power is the power He has in Christ and from Christ. It is not worldly power (although some popes have had that), it is heavenly power; heavenly power comes from heaven, where there is no corruption, and thus does not corrupt.

[dairygirl4u2c]

I could still push the issue given what's been said, but I think it appropriate to say that the CC wants someone closely adhered to its teachings to partake. That means someone who follows the same morals and follows good authority and are unified and such. That gives dignity to the sacrament. The orthodox are catholic in all except what aurthority they follow, and they believe the are the unifiers and the CC is the source of disunity, but that's probably not enough to hold against them when considering how closely they adhereto what the CC wants.
Billy grahm missing the authority of apostolic succession is major enough I could see as beginning ot deivate too much from what's wanted. You gotta draw the line somewhere and that's a pretty big issue, apostolic succession.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1174461' date='Jan 23 2007, 10:31 PM']
Because Jesus founded a Church, and somebody has to be in charge .
[/quote]
Why? Why does someone need to be in authority?

If we all have the Holy Ghost, and it leads us into all truth, why do we need human leadership? Why do we need any human leadership, be it religion or governmental? Are we being brainwashed into believing we need it?

After reading 1st Samuel 8:5-18, those were my questions, especially when I read those scriptures, and see coutries creating armies which they use to kill each other. Where religions teach people to commit holy crusades through out the last two thousand years.

First it was the Christians who invaded the holy lands during the great crusades, and now it's Osma Bin Ladens asking people to fly air planes into buildings, if that is what truly happened. We have WWI, and WWII, the first bringing the opression of federal income tax to us, and the second bringing the opression of a multi-national organization whose treaties we have signed promotes children watching pornography, homosexual rights, educational enforcement of teaching of global citizens, and many other evil things.

I realized the truth when I saw all these things come to pass. We don't need religion or government, only YHWH. But the flesh will always war against the spirit, and so your statement reminds me of such. Your flesh wants the security of human leadership.

I choose something else entirely. I will not conform to this world of govenrment or religion anymore. I will go YHWH's way. His way is pure and precious. His way is better for us. We need the be freed of all bondage of government and religion because they only bring wars, death, destruction, famine, bondage and control in our world.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174477' date='Jan 23 2007, 10:58 PM']
Why? Why does someone need to be in authority?

If we all have the Holy Ghost, and it leads us into all truth, why do we need human leadership? Why do we need any human leadership, be it religion or governmental? Are we being brainwashed into believing we need it?

After reading 1st Samuel 8:5-18, those were my questions, especially when I read those scriptures, and see coutries creating armies which they use to kill each other. Where religions teach people to commit holy crusades through out the last two thousand years.

First it was the Christians who invaded the holy lands during the great crusades, and now it's Osma Bin Ladens asking people to fly air planes into buildings, if that is what truly happened. We have WWI, and WWII, the first bringing the opression of federal income tax to us, and the second bringing the opression of a multi-national organization whose treaties we have signed promotes children watching pornography, homosexual rights, educational enforcement of teaching of global citizens, and many other evil things.

I realized the truth when I saw all these things come to pass. We don't need religion or government, only YHWH. But the flesh will always war against the spirit, and so your statement reminds me of such. Your flesh wants the security of human leadership.

I choose something else entirely. I will not conform to this world of govenrment or religion anymore. I will go YHWH's way. His way is pure and precious. His way is better for us. We need the be freed of all bondage of government and religion because they only bring wars, death, destruction, famine, bondage and control in our world.
[/quote]
We need someone in charge because without it, anyone can pick up a Bible and interpret it on there own. That is why there are so many different groups out there spouting their personal version of christianity must be correct. So you have lutherans, unitarians, pentecostal, baptists etc all claiming to be right with different teachings.
Fact: Jesus Christ founded a Church and gave the CHURCH authority. He did NOT write a book. The Church is the pillar and foundation, not a book. Is the Bible important - absolutely. Will it save us? No. The Bible is Sacred Tradition written down.
But the Bible which was canoned 400 years after Jesus, is not the Living Body of Christ. The Church is, where the Apostles were told to do THIS in remembrance of me, and to teach and preach, and baptise.
Somebody has to be in charge, and Jesus put St Peter in charge. Imagine for 2000 years someone is still in charge. Thank You God

[dairygirl4u2c]

as a practical matter, it also seems weird to command someone to do something when they don't know why. i suppose it's no different though than when your parents tell you to do something, and you later find that they were right but didn't know at the time they told you.

as a matter of theory though, if we have faith in hte holy spirit to bring pepole to the truth, we wouldn't necessarily need the CC. people would figure it out eventually. that does somewhat ring a bell with our human condition that we really don't know a whole lot about God etc. catholics would surely say the beauty of the CCis that you don't have to figure most of it out. if people are doing things against the CC and think they are in spirit and do so all their lives, I wonder how catholics can remain confident they are right thought.

if the cc is wrong though, that's a travesty of will to the human person. i believe what scott hahn once said rings true. either the CC is what it says it is and is one of the greatest blessing ever, or the CC is not what it says it is and one of the biggest curses ever.

[ronyodish]

FullTruth,

The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is the King, in fact, King of Kings:

[quote]Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth. This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover. Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God." That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him: Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 671).[/quote]

And

[quote]On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16).[/quote]

The Pope, and in fact, all the People of God, reborn in Christ, share in the Kingly office of Christ:

[quote]Finally, the People of God shares in the royal office of Christ. He exercises his kingship by drawing all men to himself through his death and Resurrection. Christ, King and Lord of the universe, made himself the servant of all, for he came "not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." For the Christian, "to reign is to serve him," particularly when serving "the poor and the suffering, in whom the Church recognizes the image of her poor and suffering founder." The People of God fulfills its royal dignity by a life in keeping with its vocation to serve with Christ.

The sign of the cross makes kings of all those reborn in Christ and the anointing of the Holy Spirit consecrates them as priests, so that, apart from the particular service of our ministry, all spiritual and rational Christians are recognized as members of this royal race and sharers in Christ's priestly office. What, indeed, is as royal for a soul as to govern the body in obedience to God? And what is as priestly as to dedicate a pure conscience to the Lord and to offer the spotless offerings of devotion on the altar of the heart? (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 786).[/quote]

In a special sense, the Pope's role in the Kingdom of God is that of a Prime Minister to Jesus Christ his King. This office of a prime minister (or Steward) is based on the model of the OT kingdom of David. In Isaiah 22, during the reign of king Hezekiah, the Lord removes the prime minister Shebna from his office and replaces him with Eliakim, saying of him the following:

[quote]In that day I will call my servant Eli'akim the son of Hilki'ah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father [Papa, Pope] to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. And I will fasten him like a peg in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father's house. And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father's house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons. (Isaiah 22:20-24).[/quote]

In the NT, Jesus draws from this OT text when he makes Peter the steward of His Kingdom:

[quote]And I tell you, you are Peter [Rock, Kepa in Aramaic], and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).[/quote]

Thus, the Catholic understanding of the authority of the Pope as the Steward of Christ's kingdom is very Biblical, and makes sense in that a steward is needed in order to unite the whole Church of Christ, so that the faith, which was delivered to the saints once and for all, can be preserved for all generations without confusion and error.

God bless,

Rony

Edited January 24, 2007 by Rony Odish

[FullTruth]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1174494' date='Jan 23 2007, 11:08 PM']
We need someone in charge because without it, anyone can pick up a Bible and interpret it on there own. That is why there are so many different groups out there spouting their personal version of christianity must be correct. So you have lutherans, unitarians, pentecostal, baptists etc all claiming to be right with different teachings.
Fact: Jesus Christ founded a Church and gave the CHURCH authority. He did NOT write a book. The Church is the pillar and foundation, not a book. Is the Bible important - absolutely. Will it save us? No. The Bible is Sacred Tradition written down.
But the Bible which was canoned 400 years after Jesus, is not the Living Body of Christ. The Church is, where the Apostles were told to do THIS in remembrance of me, and to teach and preach, and baptise.
Somebody has to be in charge, and Jesus put St Peter in charge. Imagine for 2000 years someone is still in charge. Thank You God
[/quote]

There are examples of the scriptures written in 150 A.D.

There books of the Bible were written much earlier than 400 years after the death of Jesus. If that was not so, I as a journalist would not believe it. How can something written hundreds of years after someone's death be true?

But thank YHWH, the majority of the books of the bible was written within the first thirty of years after the death of Christ.

So the books were written before then. Canonized in 400 AD, yes, but written before then.

I only posed a question. Should any human being have authority over anything on earth?

Would not the Spirit testify of the truth, and lead us into godly and holy lives? Your statement suggests it would not. What I say is not my interpretation of the Bible, but the spirit's interpretation. Only the spirit can interpret the word of YHWH. And the spirit has freed me from the prision I once was in, being a part of the governmentally and religion controlled world. I don't need them. I only need YHWH because he is the truth, he is the way, he is the life. YHWH is our righteousness.

And Yeshua didn't put anybody in charge. Did Peter tell Paul, go out and teach the Gentiles. No, YHWH did. YHWH came to Paul and then Paul went out to preach the truth.

YHWH is more than capable of ruling over us, even if he is not here. He can give us each personal guidence and direction through his spirit. We don't need a Pope telling us what to do at all. YHWH can do it all by himself.

We don't need Presidents, Prime Ministers, Senators, Primiers, Govenours, Popes, Priests, the United Nations, or any other authority over us. We only need YHWH. It is that pure and simple. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

Edited January 24, 2007 by FullTruth

[ardillacid]

ANARCHY!!!

[Katholikos]

[b]I wrote that the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to be in schism, not in heresy.

StThmasMore replied:

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1173320' date='Jan 22 2007, 06:42 PM']
That's completely incorrect. The Greek Orthodox are in schism and in heresy. [/quote]

My answer:

QUOTE
Orthodox Churches:

Eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Christians of the Orthodox Churches are separated from the Catholic Church [color="#CC0000"](schism)[/color], yet are in an imperfect but deep communion with the Catholic Church by reason of our common Baptism, the profession of the Creed, and the possession of true sacraments by reason of the apostolic succession of their priesthood.

END QUOTE

Source: THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
(Second Edition) GLOSSARY

(color added)

Jay[/b]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174535' date='Jan 24 2007, 12:00 AM']
YHWH is more than capable of ruling over us, even if he is not here. He can give us each personal guidence and direction through his spirit. We don't need a Pope telling us what to do at all. YHWH can do it all by himself.

We don't need Presidents, Prime Ministers, Senators, Primiers, Govenours, Popes, Priests, the United Nations, or any other authority over us. We only need YHWH. It is that pure and simple. Nothing more and nothing less than that.
[/quote]

So what happens when we sin by rebelling against what YHWH tells us to do?

And didn't Christ say, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's"?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1174535' date='Jan 24 2007, 12:00 AM']
There are examples of the scriptures written in 150 A.D.
[color="#3333FF"]THe last Scripture written was St Johns around AD 100[/color]


There books of the Bible were written much earlier than 400 years after the death of Jesus. If that was not so, I as a journalist would not believe it. How can something written hundreds of years after someone's death be true?

But thank YHWH, the majority of the books of the bible was written within the first thirty of years after the death of Christ.

So the books were written before then. Canonized in 400 AD, yes, but written before then.

[color="#3333FF"]Yep.[/color]

I only posed a question. Should any human being have authority over anything on earth?

[color="#3333FF"]Yes. otherwise you have anarchy.[/color]

Would not the Spirit testify of the truth, and lead us into godly and holy lives? Your statement suggests it would not. What I say is not my interpretation of the Bible, but the spirit's interpretation. Only the spirit can interpret the word of YHWH. And the spirit has freed me from the prision I once was in, being a part of the governmentally and religion controlled world. I don't need them. I only need YHWH because he is the truth, he is the way, he is the life. YHWH is our righteousness.

[color="#3333FF"]Each group claims the Spirit tells them something different. That is not possible if there is only ONE Truth.[/color]


And Yeshua didn't put anybody in charge. Did Peter tell Paul, go out and teach the Gentiles. No, YHWH did. YHWH came to Paul and then Paul went out to preach the truth.

[color="#3333FF"]God the FatherHimself put Peter in charge, as written in Scripture.[/color]

YHWH is more than capable of ruling over us, even if he is not here. He can give us each personal guidence and direction through his spirit. We don't need a Pope telling us what to do at all. YHWH can do it all by himself.

[color="#3333FF"]Sadly it doesn't work that way. I have friends who are convinced God tells them its ok to be active homosexuals. I have friends who believe abortion is acceptable cause their God tells tem so. THIS is why God put Peter and his sucessors in charge.[/color]

We don't need Presidents, Prime Ministers, Senators, Primiers, Govenours, Popes, Priests, the United Nations, or any other authority over us. We only need YHWH. It is that pure and simple. Nothing more and nothing less than that.
[/quote]

[color="#3333FF"]Without someone in charge you have anarchy and division.[/color]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1174738' date='Jan 24 2007, 10:40 AM']
[b]I wrote that the Catholic Church considers the Orthodox to be in schism, not in heresy.

StThmasMore replied:
My answer:

QUOTE
Orthodox Churches:

Eastern Churches not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Christians of the Orthodox Churches are separated from the Catholic Church [color="#CC0000"](schism)[/color], yet are in an imperfect but deep communion with the Catholic Church by reason of our common Baptism, the profession of the Creed, and the possession of true sacraments by reason of the apostolic succession of their priesthood.

END QUOTE

Source: THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
(Second Edition) GLOSSARY

(color added)

Jay[/b]
[/quote]

That doesn't say they're not in schism and heresy...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I would say that as the Orthodox Church is missing the full deposit, it is in a state of material heresy and some of its members in a state of formal heresy.

Of course, some "Catholics" are in a state of formal heresy, too, so that doesn't say much.