Liturgical Lay Ministers and Sacraments/Sacramentals

[Jaime]

Hopefully you will learn the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental before you enter the seminary.


Ashes are not a sacrament. Anyone can handle a sacramental

[Aloysius]

The traditional roman rite and the current normative roman rite are not properly two different rites in the same way the mozarabic rite and the roman rite are different rites. it should be of tremendous interest to anyone who attends the traditional rite and wishes to understand the Church in a scholarly way how the current normative rite is governed by the hierarchy.

of course, if you are not interested in understanding the Church in a scholarly way, that's perfectly fine. It's fine for people to regularly attend the old rite and know nothing of the new rite living out the faith the way their grandparents did with simple faith. but if you wish to be one of these common lay folk, it is not your proper position to make comments on liturgical discussions and you ought to be silent on matters like this and accept your proper normal vocation of living out a simple faith.

it is always preferable for such things as this that a minister who properly represents an extension of the clergy not an extension of the laity to administer it. it keeps the liturgical symbolism intact. this is, of course, much more important for stuff like the administration of the Eucharist. penitential signs such as this can be administered by the laity to the laity without any real negative consequences to liturgical symbolism.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197492' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:56 PM']I don't want to create an argument, but I felt compelled to write this after seeing the words "extraordinary minister":

From St. Thomas Aquinas:
"Out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency" (Summa Theologica, III, Q. 82, Art. 3).
Mother Teresa's words:
When Mother Teresa was asked by Fr. George Rutler, "What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?" she replied without a moment’s hesitation: "Wherever I go in the whole world, the thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive Communion-in-the-hand."
The truth is that only a priest should be touching the Eucharist. Also, I, as a soon-to-be seminarian, firmly believe that [b]only[/b] a priest should also give out the ashes.[/quote]
Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.

[Didymus]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197492' date='Feb 16 2007, 10:56 PM']Also, I, as a soon-to-be seminarian, firmly believe that [b]only[/b] a priest should also give out the ashes.[/quote]

you wont be the only seminarian who thinks so

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1197503' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:09 PM']Hopefully you will learn the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental before you enter the seminary.
Ashes are not a sacrament. Anyone can handle a sacramental[/quote]
Thank you.


Sometimes I think this is more of a pride issue than anything else. The Church has made clear where she stands on this matter. Your opinions don't rule out the Church's teachings.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197512' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:18 PM']Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.[/quote]
precisely.

[Apotheoun]

It does not follow that because something [i]may[/i] be done, that it should be done.

The continuing liturgical clericalization of the laity in the Roman Church is creating a new obstacle to the restoration of full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, who see these liturgical changes as nothing more than a sign of the complete collapse of the sense of the sacred, and of the distinct roles of clergy and laity, within the divine liturgy.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1197512' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:18 AM']Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.[/quote]
yes, the Church has ruled that they are allowed for extreme cases but are overall not preferable. according to everything the Church has said, it is most preferable that the Eucharist only be administered by priests as they extend the ministry of the bishop and deacons as they extend the ministry of the priest. if these are not possible on a consistent regular basis, acolytes ought to be instituted to extend the ministry of the priest/deacon by being installed by the bishop after a preparation process (so that he is, by being prepared by the bishop, a type of extension of the clerical state).

in extra-ordinary circumstances (ie not on a weekly or daily basis) an ordinary layman who has been appointed by the priest (maybe even the bishop) may also administer the Eucharist.

in the same way (but to a lesser degree of importance) the ashes should be distributed by some type of extension of the clergy to maintain liturgical symbolism in the interaction between the laity and the clergy/priestly office. seeing as Ash Wednesday is one day a year, not even the most crowded day, it should be easy to plan for some symbolic extension of the clergy to administer the ashes.

but this is something for priests to be advised on. it is the fault of priests or bishops if Extraordinary Ministers are misused/overused. the original poster of the thread is not at fault; if they didn't sign up to do it someone else would've. but you're perfectly within your rights to only receive your ashes or eucharist from a priest.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

So, from what i understand it is licit for a layman/woman to distribute the ashes. But why is it necessary?

[Moneybags]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1197503' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:09 PM']Hopefully you will learn the difference between a sacrament and a sacramental before you enter the seminary.
Ashes are not a sacrament. Anyone can handle a sacramental[/quote]

I do not accept that. It should be the sole duty of the priest to administer the ashes during the Mass as well as administer the Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord. Laypeople need to stop trying to act like priests, in my opinion.

[quote]Saints are not infallible, and they are not the Magisterium, and the Church has ruled on these matters.[/quote]

So we should ignore St. Thomas's most brillant theological work in favor of modernism? Let us ask ourselves if the Church over the past two thousand years previously allowed laypeople to administer the Eucharist. I will continue to hold St. Thomas's words extremely highly. It would be wrong to disagree with them since the Church has held the theological opinions of St. Thomas for centuries.

[catholic_apologetics]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197562' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:40 AM']I do not accept that.[/quote]

You do not accept the difference between a sacramental and a sacrament? Why not?

[catholic_apologetics]

[quote]So we should ignore St. Thomas's most brillant theological work in favor of modernism?[/quote]

What modernism?

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1197554' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:34 PM']It does not follow that because something [i]may[/i] be done, that it should be done.

The continuing liturgical clericalization of the laity in the Roman Church is creating a new obstacle to the restoration of full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, who see these liturgical changes as nothing more than a sign of the complete collapse of the sense of the sacred, and of the distinct roles of clergy and laity within the divine liturgy.[/quote]
Are you really saying that the distribution of ashes is going to keep the Roman Church and the Eastern Orthodox from coming together? Please tell me that's not what you're saying....

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1197555' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:35 PM']yes, the Church has ruled that they are allowed for extreme cases but are overall not preferable. according to everything the Church has said, it is most preferable that the Eucharist only be administered by priests as they extend the ministry of the bishop and deacons as they extend the ministry of the priest. if these are not possible on a consistent regular basis, acolytes ought to be instituted to extend the ministry of the priest/deacon by being installed by the bishop after a preparation process (so that he is, by being prepared by the bishop, a type of extension of the clerical state).

in extra-ordinary circumstances (ie not on a weekly or daily basis) an ordinary layman who has been appointed by the priest (maybe even the bishop) may also administer the Eucharist.

in the same way (but to a lesser degree of importance) the ashes should be distributed by some type of extension of the clergy to maintain liturgical symbolism in the interaction between the laity and the clergy/priestly office. seeing as Ash Wednesday is one day a year, not even the most crowded day, it should be easy to plan for some symbolic extension of the clergy to administer the ashes.

but this is something for priests to be advised on. it is the fault of priests or bishops if Extraordinary Ministers are misused/overused. the original poster of the thread is not at fault; if they didn't sign up to do it someone else would've. but you're perfectly within your rights to only receive your ashes or eucharist from a priest.[/quote]
Ashes are not sacrament. We're not talking about the Eucharist, either. No one said anything about Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. We are strictly talking about the distribution of ashes. I understand that you were likening it to the situation.. but frankly, they're not the same. We're dealing with apples and oranges here.

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1197556' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:36 PM']So, from what i understand it is licit for a layman/woman to distribute the ashes. But why is it necessary?[/quote]
It probably isn't necessary in every church. But every church has the right to decide who they will use.

[Moneybags]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1197554' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:34 PM']It does not follow that because something [i]may[/i] be done, that it should be done.

The continuing liturgical clericalization of the laity in the Roman Church is creating a new obstacle to the restoration of full communion with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, who see these liturgical changes as nothing more than a sign of the complete collapse of the sense of the sacred, and of the distinct roles of clergy and laity within the divine liturgy.[/quote]

I agree. It also is hurting chances of reunification with Traditionalist groups like the SSPX.

In addition, it is resulting in decreasing numbers of holy vocations. Why be a priest when you can have a wife and still distribute the Eucharist, is what many men are saying! As for me, I am torn between whether or not to join a Traditionalist (in union with Rome) group or my diocese.

There must be a clear separation between the roles of the priest and the laity.

[Jaime]

[quote]I do not accept that. It should be the sole duty of the priest to administer the ashes during the Mass as well as administer the Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord. Laypeople need to stop trying to act like priests, in my opinion. maddest.gif[/quote]

Accept it or not son its the truth. Ashes are a sacramental not a sacrament. There is no need for a priest to solely be the one to administer them. There is nothing disrespectful about laypeople distributing them


You'll get it figured out when you get some learning.

[Moneybags]

[quote name='catholic_apologetics' post='1197563' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:42 PM']You do not accept the difference between a sacramental and a sacrament? Why not?[/quote]


No. I do not accept that a layperson should be freely able to administer ashes. It should be allowed only in emergency situations, in my opinion. It should be done by a priest.

[quote]What modernism?[/quote]

Ignoring the writings of St. Thomas and allowing extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197562' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:40 PM']I do not accept that. It should be the sole duty of the priest to administer the ashes during the Mass as well as administer the Sacred Body and Blood of Our Lord. Laypeople need to stop trying to act like priests, in my opinion. [/quote]
Put your pride behind you. You want lay people to not touch the holy water either? Would that make you happy?

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197562' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:40 PM']So we should ignore St. Thomas's most brillant theological work in favor of modernism? Let us ask ourselves if the Church over the past two thousand years previously allowed laypeople to administer the Eucharist. I will continue to hold St. Thomas's words extremely highly. It would be wrong to disagree with them since the Church has held the theological opinions of St. Thomas for centuries.[/quote]
We are not talking about St. Thomas's writings on the handling of the Eucharist. We are talking about the administering of ASHES. Please try to stay on topic...

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197569' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:46 PM']No. I do not accept that a layperson should be freely able to administer ashes. It should be allowed only in emergency situations, in my opinion. It should be done by a priest.[/quote]
Key words? IN YOUR OPINION.


Frankly, your opinion, when it conflicts with the teachings of the Holy Mother Church, don't matter.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197567' date='Feb 17 2007, 12:43 AM']I agree. It also is hurting chances of reunification with Traditionalist groups like the SSPX.[/quote]

wow, now that would be a real tragedy....

[Jaime]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1197569' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:46 PM']No. I do not accept that a layperson should be freely able to administer ashes. It should be allowed only in emergency situations, in my opinion. It should be done by a priest.[/quote]

Well if your opinion is more important than that of the Church's...

[Moneybags]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1197568' date='Feb 16 2007, 11:45 PM']Accept it or not son its the truth. Ashes are a sacramental not a sacrament. There is no need for a priest to solely be the one to administer them. There is nothing disrespectful about laypeople distributing them
You'll get it figured out when you get some learning.[/quote]

So I am begin called uneducated??

[u]What I am against is not so much the physical action of a layperson administering ashes. I am against a layperson getting up in Mass and walking into the sanctuary to administer ashes. [/u] That is the main issue for me. For the same reason and because laypeople shouldn't touch the Eucharist, I don't like the usage of Extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

Above all, there needs to be a more clear separation of the roles of clery and laypeople. Likewise, there needs to be something done, like the addition of altar rails, to keep the sanctuary separated from the people. Only the priest & servers should enter the Sanctuary.