Praying Souls

[dairygirl4u2c]

so what's with this doctrine of needing to pray souls out of purgatory? it seems so random. why can't souls work themselves out? i get this image they are in a cocoon until someone's prayer intervenes and they can get right.
is this official doctrine that you must pray them out?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[b]Q. 1383. Are the souls in Purgatory sure of their salvation?

A. The souls in Purgatory are sure of their salvation, and they will enter heaven as soon as they are completely purified and made worthy to enjoy that presence of God which is called the Beatific Vision.

Q. 1384. Do we know what souls are in Purgatory, and how long they have to remain there?

A. We do not know what souls are in Purgatory nor how long they have to remain there; hence we continue to pray for all persons who have died apparently in the true faith and free from mortal sin. They are called the faithful departed.

Q. 1385. Can the faithful on earth help the souls in Purgatory?

A. The faithful on earth can help the souls in Purgatory by their prayers, fasts, alms, deeds; by indulgences, and by having Masses said for them.[/b]

i do not think prayers are needed, they are just very helpful.

[Aloysius]

they are undergoing the process of purification and healing at basically a consistent speed all around... but some need more purification and healing than others and thus some will remain there longer than others. but our prayers and good deeds applied for their sake speed up their purification and healing; we can merit for them a more thorough faster healing and purification. this is because God wishes that we be able to help each other out in the plan of salvation; he wishes to use humans to help save otheer humans. and perfect justice calls for good deeds and prayers to be done in reparation for the evil that was done by the sins of the souls in purgatory; so either they undergo the normal speed of the process in being purified, or their evils are atoned for by our prayers and good deeds and their process is sped up.

[Paddington]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1199103' date='Feb 18 2007, 05:39 AM']...............speed up their purification and healing; we can merit for them a more thorough faster healing and purification. ...................and their process is sped up.[/quote]

"more thorough" is wrong, isn't it? It will be complete either way.

"Speed up," "faster," and "sped up" imply time. I've been taught (I think) to not think of purgatory and time together. Is there a better way of saying it? Or is that the only available way to say it?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1198913' date='Feb 18 2007, 12:51 AM']so what's with this doctrine of needing to pray souls out of purgatory? it seems so random. why can't souls work themselves out? i get this image they are in a cocoon until someone's prayer intervenes and they can get right.
is this official doctrine that you must pray them out?[/quote]
Random? At it's core, 'praying' other people out of 'purgatory' is fundamental Christian philosophy and theology.

Back in the Violence of God thread, we discussed the principle that we humans can merit or earn good and bad consequences that benefit of harm others. The principle that Jesus Christ as a Human, can earn/merit salvation or justification for you and me to be with God by His sacrifice also means that we can and do the same for each other on a spiritual level. We humans can 'operate or effect the "power" to help others, but the "power" is God's grace and must be given to us from Him.

In other words, since God gives us Grace that enables us to help souls in purgatory, shouldn't we be obligated to help those in purgatory? The whole idea of God giving Grace to the Human Race, not just as unassociated individuals, but as members in 'one complete body' is often repeated and reinforced in Scripture, both Old and New Testament.

[Moneybags]

Praying for souls in purgatory is a dogma of the Church, so it must be believed. Saints have also always advocated this dogma, and some have even seen visions of the souls there needing prayers. Look to St. Faustina and blessed Catherine Emmerich for instance.

The term "purgatory" is not in the Bible, but instead look to these Biblical references: Mt. 5:48, Mt. 5:26, Mt. 12: 32, 1 Cor.15:29, 1 Tim. 1:16

[b]This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.[/b]
III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

[b]From Blessed Anna Katarina Emmerich:[/b]

"I was in Purgatory tonight. It was as if I were being led into an abyss, where I saw a large hall. It is touching to see the Poor Souls so quiet and sad. Yet their faces reveal that they have joy in their hearts, because of their recollection of God's loving mercy. On a glorious throne, I saw the Blessed Virgin, more beautiful than I had ever beheld Her. She said, 'I entreat you to instruct people to pray for the suffering Souls in Purgatory, for they certainly will pray much for us out of gratitude. Prayer for these holy souls is very pleasing to God because it enables them to see Him sooner...'" (From the Revelation of Blessed Anna Katarina Emmerich)

[b]How can we assist the souls suffering in purgatory?[/b]

By our prayers. The Holy Scripture says: "It is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (2nd Machabees 12:46).
By the holy sacrifice of the Mass. This is why we remember the faithfully departed at Mass.
By gaining indulgences for them.
Offering our Holy Communions for them.
Praying the Stations of the Cross for the souls in Purgatory
By doing Heroic Acts of Charity
Through almsgiving, penance, and fasting

[cmotherofpirl]

You can join us at : [url="http://www.pwhs-mfi.org/"]http://www.pwhs-mfi.org/[/url]

[jmjtina]

I pray daily for them.

They need it!

[jmjtina]

Random? Hardly.

[dairygirl4u2c]

If they don't necessarily need it then it makes sense. I was only saying that they all needed the prayers was random and without reason necessarily.
If there are some that need prayers, I can see that the same way some of us need the prayers applies to them. If they are all helped the prayers, that makes sense for those reasons too.

[123]

[quote]why can't souls work themselves out?[/quote]

Indeed a good questions, however a tad mislead. What the answer truly is, is not that Spirits that have passed on cannot work themselves out.[b] It is by God's determination that they will be recieved into heaven beyond purgation. But, our prayers for them are like the prayers for a living loved one whom may be suffering from a permanent or temporal illness. We ask God's power for their release and the rest of their souls like God's healing power to heal a loved one of sickness and pain.[/b]

Edited February 18, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Anomaly]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1199579' date='Feb 18 2007, 12:37 PM']Praying for souls in purgatory is a dogma of the Church, so it must be believed. Saints have also always advocated this dogma, and some have even seen visions of the souls there needing prayers. Look to St. Faustina and blessed Catherine Emmerich for instance.[/quote]
Not to hurt your feelings, but for those who aren't Roman Catholic, Church "dogma" doesn't mean diddly squat. "Visions" by other people don't hold much water either. I do believe dairy was looking for explanation from reasonable logic, reasonable philosphy, and basic theology.

[Moneybags]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1199894' date='Feb 18 2007, 05:56 PM']Not to hurt your feelings, but for those who aren't Roman Catholic, Church "dogma" doesn't mean diddly squat. "Visions" by other people don't hold much water either. I do believe dairy was looking for explanation from reasonable logic, reasonable philosphy, and basic theology.[/quote]

A truth is a truth whether or not a person is Catholic or not. All people are called to that same universal truth. All people need to believe in the one, true Faith.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X']9 Q. Does the Communion of Saints extend also to heaven and purgatory?
A. Yes, the Communion of Saints also extends to heaven and purgatory, because charity unites the three Churches — the Triumphant, the Suffering and the Militant; the Saints pray to God both for us and for the souls in purgatory; while we on our part give honour and glory to the Saints, and are able to relieve the suffering souls in purgatory by applying on their behalf indulgences and other good works.[/quote]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1199910' date='Feb 18 2007, 08:02 PM']A truth is a truth whether or not a person is Catholic or not. All people are called to that same universal truth. All people need to believe in the one, true Faith.[/quote]
Your answer didn't answer her question in any meaningful way. What you provided is no more than an opinion unless you provide reason and logic to back it up and justify belief in it. dairygirl has no logical reasons to accept the teaching on purgatory just because the RCChurch states it.

[Urib2007]

Where in the Bible does it speak of purgatory?

[cmotherofpirl]

Start by remembering the Bible is not the total revelation of Jesus Christ, that is not a biblical notion.
Purgatory is discussed in scriptures and the Early Church Fathers as well.

Scriptures on Purgatory

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Top





II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.


scripturecatholic.org

[Urib2007]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1200195' date='Feb 18 2007, 10:50 PM']Start by remembering the Bible is not the total revelation of Jesus Christ, that is not a biblical notion.
Purgatory is discussed in scriptures and the Early Church Fathers as well.

Scriptures on Purgatory

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.[/quote]

[color="#000080"]Here is a prime example that if you approach the scriptures with an agenda of trying to find a verse to prove your false doctrine, you will find it. All you have to do is to take it out of context and build up an antithesis based upon other obscure verses that have no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand.

First of all, I cannot find anywhere that Onesiphorus is dead when Paul wrote Timothy about his service and concern for his imprisonment. Then they take this assumption and then further enhance it by using a figure of speech, "on that day" (referring to the day of the Lord, or the day of the Lord's judgment) and build up a case for a place that is never mentioned in scriptures in the first place. It is the exact way that they try to "prove" the rapture. The rapture is never mentioned in the first place, then they take verses out of context then build a doctrine around that heresy.

Purgatory was first created by the Catholic church to extract money from the population to "buy" their dead loved ones out of the suffering of purgatory and into the full salvation of Heaven. The question you have to ask yourself is...If there is a purgatory, why then was the blood of Jesus not enough to redeem the person in the first place? It just smacks the face of God for the sacrifice of Christ's death, that somehow it wasn't enough to cover the sins of the person and now they need to further "pay" the church for the privilege of going to heaven. This is just one of many of the cleverly devised "rackets" the Catholic church devised to line their pockets full of money. since it was based upon the premises that the Church held the keys of the kingdom, they then were given full reign to scare people into control by threatening them with all sorts of "excommunications" and such. It is all heresy at the highest levels that seeks to control and dominate a population with superstition. There will be many Catholic priests, Bishops, and Popes in Hell paying for their heresy. They are just the Christian version of the "pharisees".

Look high and look low through out the entire body of scripture and try to find where purgatory exists and you will come up completely emptyhanded. The same is true about the Rapture, or any false doctrine for that matter. Rightly dividing the Word of truth is a sign of maturity, and it is the path to true knowledge.[/color]

[jeffpugh]

They ARE redeemed, but are NOT perfect. Those of purgatory still cling to worldly things that prohibit fully loving God (in a large or small way). You are confusing purgatory with indulgences which were indeed abused in the 16th century but was not invented just then to get people's money. As for damnation of popes, priest and bishops, I do not say yay or nay on that matter. But, because of the knowledge they are expected to have about the Divine, there is much expected of them (cf Luke 12:47 ff).

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Urib2007' post='1207402' date='Mar 3 2007, 07:38 PM'][color="#000080"]Here is a prime example that if you approach the scriptures with an agenda of trying to find a verse to prove your false doctrine, you will find it. All you have to do is to take it out of context and build up an antithesis based upon other obscure verses that have no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand.

First of all, I cannot find anywhere that Onesiphorus is dead when Paul wrote Timothy about his service and concern for his imprisonment. Then they take this assumption and then further enhance it by using a figure of speech, "on that day" (referring to the day of the Lord, or the day of the Lord's judgment) and build up a case for a place that is never mentioned in scriptures in the first place. It is the exact way that they try to "prove" the rapture. The rapture is never mentioned in the first place, then they take verses out of context then build a doctrine around that heresy.

Purgatory was first created by the Catholic church to extract money from the population to "buy" their dead loved ones out of the suffering of purgatory and into the full salvation of Heaven. The question you have to ask yourself is...If there is a purgatory, why then was the blood of Jesus not enough to redeem the person in the first place? It just smacks the face of God for the sacrifice of Christ's death, that somehow it wasn't enough to cover the sins of the person and now they need to further "pay" the church for the privilege of going to heaven. This is just one of many of the cleverly devised "rackets" the Catholic church devised to line their pockets full of money. since it was based upon the premises that the Church held the keys of the kingdom, they then were given full reign to scare people into control by threatening them with all sorts of "excommunications" and such. It is all heresy at the highest levels that seeks to control and dominate a population with superstition. There will be many Catholic priests, Bishops, and Popes in Hell paying for their heresy. They are just the Christian version of the "pharisees".

Look high and look low through out the entire body of scripture and try to find where purgatory exists and you will come up completely emptyhanded. The same is true about the Rapture, or any false doctrine for that matter. Rightly dividing the Word of truth is a sign of maturity, and it is the path to true knowledge.[/color][/quote]
Gotta love that doctrine.

You don't really have to live a pure and holy life before the Lord, because you can go to Purgatory and be purified.