Praying Souls

[Farsight one]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1207450' date='Mar 3 2007, 08:05 PM']Gotta love that doctrine.

You don't really have to live a pure and holy life before the Lord, because you can go to Purgatory and be purified. [/quote]
Do you live a completely pure and holy life? In other words, are you sinless? If you claim so, then you are blaspheming. If you are not, then you must become completely pure to enter heaven, as is mentioned in the bible. So which is it?

[jeffpugh]

[quote]Gotta love that doctrine.

You don't really have to live a pure and holy life before the Lord, because you can go to Purgatory and be purified. [/quote]
No. Read the scriptures. St Paul is against licentiousness. Thanks for playing FullTruth.

Edit: Dang, someone always beats me to the post, eh? :

Edited March 4, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1207453' date='Mar 3 2007, 09:19 PM']Do you live a completely pure and holy life? In other words, are you sinless? If you claim so, then you are blaspheming. If you are not, then you must become completely pure to enter heaven, as is mentioned in the bible. So which is it?[/quote]
I consider living pure and holy a little different than you.

I like the idea of whole hearted, because the JPS uses that instead of perfect all the time.

If you're whole hearted for the lord, God will forgive every sin and allow you into heaven. When you die, you enter eternity, and there is no time in eternity - which is why it is eternity. So there is no time needed to purify because there is no time in eternity. You either make it into heaven, or you don't. You either completely trust the lord for salvation, or you don't.

That is why I can say, without and doubt, I already exist in heaven, and I am already praising Christ before the throne saying, Worthy, Worthy, Worthy is the lamb of God. Why, because one day I will be recieved unto glory, and once I am there, I have always exsisted in glory, because there is no time in glory.

Have I sinned, Yes. But I don't live anymore, but Christ in me.

So when I die, Christ will recieve me to himself. I will enter into Glory, and that is why I have always existed in glory because glory has no time in it.

That is why I believe Jesus Christ has always existed in Glory as well, and can still have a beginning in time, but once he was recieved into glory, he always existed there.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1207454' date='Mar 3 2007, 09:21 PM']No. Read the scriptures. St Paul is against licentiousness. Thanks for playing FullTruth.

Edit: Dang, someone always beats me to the post, eh? :[/quote]
I like your response better.

You're right about certain sins making it impossible for you to enter heaven and send you straight to hell. But here's the thing, There is no purgatory. Purgatory relies on one major doctrinal error - there is time in heaven.

There is no time in heaven, and that is why it is called eternity. So there is no time for one to be purified once you die. If there is no time, that means someone can't be purified of the sins they have committed because time doesn't pass there. Past, Present, Future exist simultaneously in heaven. So you instantly become the past, present, and future at the same time.

So you immediately go into heaven, or you immediately go to hell once you die.

[jeffpugh]

I don't know whether you intend this FullTruth, but it's coming across that you are carrying the weight of your salvation. One DOES need to submit to Jesus to receive grace but we are not perfect. We either make it to heaven -- some have to take a detour to purgatory to wipe away the blemishes that prohibit us from seeing and Worshiping God fully --or you turn from God and God's revelation and go to Hell. Either is a choice. No one is forced either way.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1207486' date='Mar 3 2007, 09:58 PM']I don't know whether you intend this FullTruth, but it's coming across that you are carrying the weight of your salvation. One DOES need to submit to Jesus to receive grace but we are not perfect. We either make it to heaven -- some have to take a detour to purgatory to wipe away the blemishes that prohibit us from seeing and Worshiping God fully --or you turn from God and God's revelation and go to Hell. Either is a choice. No one is forced either way.[/quote]
I am sorry if it seems like I carry any weight of my salvation on me. I don't. I am only glad for the grace God has shown me. I only trust Jesus Christ death on the cross. I have faith that God's love for us has blotted all of our sins out.

Have I submitted myself to him. Yes. Every single day I pray. Every single day I read my bible. Every single day I make him my one and only. Every single time I ask him to guide me in my life.

I believe God's love covers all of our sins, so we instantly go into heaven when we die if we have been faithful.

[quote name='Proverbs 10:12']Hatred stirreth up strifes; but love covereth all transgressions.[/quote]

[quote name='John 3:16']For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/quote]

Eternity has no time, which makes it impossible for one to be purified over time through purgatory. Either God's love covers all your transgressions, or you don't trust in it. I prefer to trust totally in God's unwarranted favour (which is what Grace really is), than not too.

I do conclude with you that you are not forced into either as well. I just don't believe a believer has to wait before entering heaven. Not believing in Purgatory is also great for a believer. You don't have to worry about weither you enter into heaven or not if you have been faithful in christ. If you have, you will instantly be glorified before the throne. No waiting required.

The reason is that God's love covers all your transgressions.

Edited March 4, 2007 by FullTruth

[Budge]

One does NOT need Purgatory to be made perfect.

Every saved Christian is made PERFECT in Christ.

[quote]Purgatory was first created by the Catholic church to extract money from the population to "buy" their dead loved ones out of the suffering of purgatory and into the full salvation of Heaven. The question you have to ask yourself is...If there is a purgatory, why then was the blood of Jesus not enough to redeem the person in the first place? It just smacks the face of God for the sacrifice of Christ's death, that somehow it wasn't enough to cover the sins of the person and now they need to further "pay" the church for the privilege of going to heaven.[/quote]

Amen I totally agree.

It basically says Jesus's blood was not good enough to save you, redeem you and CLEANSE you.

I believe and I have stated this before here, that Purgatory is ACTUALLY HELL. If someone is not under the protection of God, why wouldnt Satan LIE to them and say...ONE DAY YOU WILL GET OUT...to make the torture even more complete?

I have cried thinking of this.

Purgatory has FIRE--just like hell, the Catholic saints taught it had suffering worse then of earth---just like HELL, and purgatory is SEPERATION FROM GOD--[against Hebrews 13 and JUST LIKE HELL}

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Vulgata Clementina']Ítaque fratres, state : et tenéte traditiónes, quas didicístis, sive per sermónem, sive per epístolam nostram.[/quote]

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1207556' date='Mar 3 2007, 10:21 PM']One does NOT need Purgatory to be made perfect.

Every saved Christian is made PERFECT in Christ.[/quote]Are you actually claiming to be perfect? Cuz that's blasphemous in any christian religion. You're a sinner, and are not perfect. If Christ had made you perfect, wouldn't you never sin?

[quote]It basically says Jesus's blood was not good enough to save you, redeem you and CLEANSE you.[/quote]It was of course enough to save each and every one of us, but doesn't it seem logical that God would want you to show your loyalty before he up and saves you?

[quote]I believe and I have stated this before here, that Purgatory is ACTUALLY HELL. If someone is not under the protection of God, why wouldnt Satan LIE to them and say...ONE DAY YOU WILL GET OUT...to make the torture even more complete?[/quote]Then what do you have to say in response to the plethora of bible verses that evidence the existence of some middle ground where sins are cleansed?

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1207606' date='Mar 4 2007, 01:48 AM']Are you actually claiming to be perfect? Cuz that's blasphemous in any christian religion. You're a sinner, and are not perfect. If Christ had made you perfect, wouldn't you never sin?

It was of course enough to save each and every one of us, but doesn't it seem logical that God would want you to show your loyalty before he up and saves you?

Then what do you have to say in response to the plethora of bible verses that evidence the existence of some middle ground where sins are cleansed?[/quote]
Farsight one,

You're putting words in our mouths.

Of course, we are not perfect. But we are redeemed by the grace of God.

If Purgatory is some nebulous middle ground where a person must spend some time to be purified, it goes against scriptures that say there is no time beyond here on the earth.

So how does one get purified once their soul is in purgator, if it takes some time to be purified? There is no time in eternity, because the past, present, and future all exist in one place. So you'd be instantly purified if you needed time to be purified, right?

Heaven doesn't function like here on the earth. All time exists in heaven, so any time you need to be purified would instantly happen. Once you leave this dimension, you'd exist in heaven, and once you exist in heaven, you exist beyond time and wouldn't need any time to be purified because you exist in the past, present, and future.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1207610' date='Mar 4 2007, 12:57 AM']Farsight one,

You're putting words in our mouths.[/quote]No, I wasn't. I was asking a question. If I was putting words in your mouth, I would be telling you what you believe instead of asking.

[quote]Of course, we are not perfect. But we are redeemed by the grace of God.[/quote]Since you are not perfect, and it is necessary to be perfect to enter heaven, how would you enter heaven in your current state?

[quote]If Purgatory is some nebulous middle ground where a person must spend some time to be purified, it goes against scriptures that say there is no time beyond here on the earth.[/quote]And where might it say this?

[quote]Heaven doesn't function like here on the earth. All time exists in heaven, so any time you need to be purified would instantly happen. Once you leave this dimension, you'd exist in heaven, and once you exist in heaven, you exist beyond time and wouldn't need any time to be purified because you exist in the past, present, and future.[/quote]1. You're contradicting yourself. First you say time doesn't exist in heaven, then you say all time exists in heaven. Which is it?
2. Your logicical syllogism to disprove the existence of purgatory first assumes that purgatory doesn't exist. That is a blatant logical fallacy.
3. How can one exist int he past, present, and future(concepts of time) if there is no time?

And - please respond to the biblical evidence on page one that implies the existence of purgatory. Simply saying that it was taken out of context does nothing. You need to explain how.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1207617' date='Mar 4 2007, 02:11 AM']No, I wasn't. I was asking a question. If I was putting words in your mouth, I would be telling you what you believe instead of asking.

Since you are not perfect, and it is necessary to be perfect to enter heaven, how would you enter heaven in your current state?

And where might it say this?

1. You're contradicting yourself. First you say time doesn't exist in heaven, then you say all time exists in heaven. Which is it?
2. Your logicical syllogism to disprove the existence of purgatory first assumes that purgatory doesn't exist. That is a blatant logical fallacy.
3. How can one exist int he past, present, and future(concepts of time) if there is no time?

And - please respond to the biblical evidence on page one that implies the existence of purgatory. Simply saying that it was taken out of context does nothing. You need to explain how.[/quote]
First of all - The only reason time exist is to create every purpose [b]under the heaven[/b]
[quote name='Ecclesiastes 3:1']To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:[/quote]

When we are recieved into heaven, it is the [b]last time[/b]

[quote name='1 Peter 1:4-6']To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the [b]last time.[/b]

Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:[/quote]

[quote name='1 John 2:17-19']And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the [b]last time.[/b]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.[/quote]

Eternity exists beyond time and is all time. Think of it like looking into a house through a window. You can see what's going on, but you're not in the house.

God exists in eternity, and sees everything - all places, all times. That is why he can speak through people and tell them exactly what will happen.

The fact, in theology, [url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Eternity"]enterity means the [b]timeless[/b] state into which the soul passes at a person's death.[/url]

There is no time in Eternity, and it is the focal point of all time, because time is a function of God to create his perfect will in us.

I hope that explains what I am talking about. Time doesn't exist in eternity, so there is no time that is needed for one to go through purgatory, because God is all time.

Edited March 4, 2007 by FullTruth

[N/A Gone]

fulltruth,

I thought you were just YHWH and bible now? You sound indoctrinated with basic poor quality soteriological propaganda

[FullTruth]

You see Rev, When one is recieved into heaven, it is the Last Time. Scripture says so.

So if it is the Last Time, Time must not exist in heaven, or there would be more time.

Purgatory is a doctrine of men, which doesn't really have any biblical foundation. One can always go into the Bible and show tonnes of scriptures that suggest Purgatory, but it doesn't exist because you don't need any more time to be purified before you enter heaven, and the reason for it is there is no time in heaven. Once you leave the earth, you exist beyond time.

That is why Jesus Christ existed from before the foundation of the earth, even though he had a beginning in time.

[kujo]

Someone once told me that sin damages our souls. Although we are sincerely penitent for the sins we have committed, the damage still remains. This notion is evident in our proclivity towards repetition of the same sins over and over and over. Due to [i]concupiscence[/i] (sp??), we are going to continue sinning despite our steadfast, honest, sincere faith. But the fact remains that we are damaged by these rejections of Our Lord. It's like launching little pebbles at our souls which leave dents and malformations on them.

That is where purgatory comes in.

Purgatory is time/place/state of being/etc. in which God removes the damage caused by our sins and failures prior to our triumphant entrance to heaven where we will spend all of eternity praising God with our clean, purified souls.

I hope that makes sense...

Edited March 4, 2007 by kujo

[FullTruth]

[quote name='kujo' post='1207885' date='Mar 4 2007, 05:14 PM']Someone once told me that sin damages our souls. Although we are sincerely penitent for the sins we have committed, the damage still remains. This notion is evident in our proclivity towards repetition of the same sins over and over and over. Due to [i]concupiscence[/i] (sp??), we are going to continue sinning despite our steadfast, honest, sincere faith. But the fact remains that we are damaged by these rejections of Our Lord. It's like launching little pebbles at our souls which leave dents and malformations on them.

That is where purgatory comes in.

Purgatory is time/place/state of being/etc. in which God removes the damage caused by our sins and failures prior to our triumphant entrance to heaven where we will spend all of eternity praising God with our clean, purified souls.

I hope that makes sense...[/quote]
That makes sense, but I think it is real time. Nothing is impossible for God, so the moment of our deaths, he can instantly remove all that damage because he can bring the future to us immediately through eternity. So there is no time we have to wait, because we are instantly healed of all the damage sin has caused us in this life.

In fact, if I can be so bold, I believe that can happen here on the earth too. I believe that God can heal of you the spiritual condition that makes you sin, and you can go on from there with peace in your heart, knowing you have been forgiven.

[N/A Gone]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=65312"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=65312[/url]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1208003' date='Mar 4 2007, 07:35 PM']That makes sense, but I think it is real time. Nothing is impossible for God, so the moment of our deaths, he can instantly remove all that damage because he can bring the future to us immediately through eternity. So there is no time we have to wait, because we are instantly healed of all the damage sin has caused us in this life.

In fact, if I can be so bold, I believe that can happen here on the earth too. I believe that God can heal of you the spiritual condition that makes you sin, and you can go on from there with peace in your heart, knowing you have been forgiven.[/quote]

This is true. The fact is, you either live your purgation on earth, or after death. We should strive to be purged now. It won't be easy and sudden, but it will happen. Let us take part in the suffering of Christ, but rejoice in his resurrection!

[N/A Gone]

Why look any farther than the best blog on catholic apologetics?

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-1.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-1.html#links[/url]

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-2.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-2.html#links[/url]

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1208304' date='Mar 5 2007, 12:00 AM']Why look any farther than the best blog on catholic apologetics?

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-1.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-1.html#links[/url]

[url="http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/defense-of-purgatory-part-2.html#links"]http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/2006/10/d...rt-2.html#links[/url][/quote]
I appreciate the links, but I don't think there is a Purgatory for the believers.

If we have been faithful, and loved God through our lord Jesus Christ, why would God be so cruel as to prevent us from being with him. Couldn't he just bring us to the future condition instantly?

I believe he has done that, is doing that, and will continue to do that for all time.

Eternity is timeless, so God can bring your future you into existance immediately, here in time and in eternity. All that really matters if you believe that or not. As you have faith, be it on to you.