Small Sins

[jesussaves]

So the sins that you commit over and over, such as eating too much etc. Then you go to mass, and all your venial sins are forgiven. But you are only forgiven of the sins you're sorry for, and intend to not commit again right? If it's something you do repeatedly, you don't really intend to not do it again.

There's always a sin like that on a person until they die. I'm trying my best to show you that becoming forgiven before you die is either legalistic, or it's just not going to happen.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

You can commit a sin repeatedly and still have the intent to stop - the person suffers from weakness.

Edited March 4, 2007 by thedude

[Maggyie]

Addiction and the force of habit can always contribute to the fall of someone who absolutely intends to stop committing a particular sin.

We can always turn to Jesus and repent and be forgiven. It doesn't seem very legalistic to me What would He say? No? Wait 'till you die, then I'll forgive you?

[Anomaly]

jessussaves,
The answer lies in the Catholic teaching of 'purgatory'.
Despite what ignorant Catholics will tell you, 'purgatory' is not really a place, but a state of existence that describes our purging of the effects our our minor sins. Based on the assumption that we have to become pure to be with God in heaven, we are being purged of the effects of our sins. Only Mortal sins keep us out from Heaven, and these sins are described and intentionally choosing to do Wrong in Serious and Grave Matters with full intent of will.

Overeating is not that huge a deal and is a habit, not a conscience decision everytime you get a twinkie. It is overly legalistic to think that every little sin carries the same weight and punishment as a huge sin, done with full intent to do wrong. If humanity can roughly figure out justice to mete out different punishments for petty theft as compared to armed bank robbers, I'm sure God can figure out fair justice to deal with overeaters and those who purposely choose to pursue evil.

[carrdero]

[b]Small Sins[/b]
There are no small sins, just small sinners.

Edited March 7, 2007 by carrdero

[jesussaves]

I would submit that one never truly commits to never sin again. They at best lie to themselves that they don't want to. Which is probably another sin, grave even.

Also, I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed.

Edited March 7, 2007 by jesussaves

[jesussaves]

therein lies the rub

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1209910' date='Mar 7 2007, 03:42 PM']I would submit that one never truly commits to never sin again. They at best lie to themselves that they don't want to. Which is probably another sin, grave even.

Also, I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed.[/quote]


No, we can in fact committ not to sin a again and make efforts not to do so. It is not a lie to make such a committment. In our weakness we will sin however. That does not mean our desire not to was a lie.

Over time, one can reduce the desire for sin and even hate sin. The danger of venial sins is that they lead to mortal sins and so they must be weeded out of the garden of our souls.

Unforgiven venial sins will land one in purgatory. Those in purgatory will have seen God at judgement and will be sorry for any sins they have committed. No flaw at all.

[jesussaves]

By the definitions proffered by people here and that I have seen, purgatory does not involve the forgiveness of venial sins. So again:

I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed.

[jesussaves]

Also, even if you could be forgiven simply for the intention to be forgiven, it would have to be a legal argument. You are not being forgiven for who you are, because you will surely sin again. The Catholic Church then either agrees with legal theory, or it is wrong. For the reasons in the last post namely.

[thessalonian]

The part your missing is that at the end of life we will face the great confesser. We will see Jesus Christ and know how our sins have wounded him. He will forgive any unforgiven venial sins that we might have BEFORE entry in to purgatory. Mortal sins will cause the soul, which has made a habit of turning from him turn once more to the eternal flames.

The theologians who wrote the Catechism are no dumies and your question is not beyond their knowledge. It is beyond yours.

[jesussaves]

You didn't address what happens if you intend to commit venial sins again. According to the Catholic Church, venial sins will not get you into hell. According to everyone, you have to be forgvin to get into heaven. So, if you have those venial sins that are unforgiven, you can't get into heaven, and you will be in hell. Purgatory doesn't forgive sins, only purifies according to the Church.

[thessalonian]

Um. Yes, that's exactly what I addressed. It's called judgement day. We meet Jesus at the moment of death in the great confession. That's not purgatory. If we have unforgiven sins they will be forgiven by him. We seeing him in all his glory will repent of everything. The advantage of having them forgiven beforehand is that one can have the temporal punishment expunged before then and the awaking of our guilt is not quite so rude.

Edited March 13, 2007 by thessalonian

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1210058' date='Mar 7 2007, 10:11 PM']By the definitions proffered by people here and that I have seen, purgatory does not involve the forgiveness of venial sins. So again:

I think there's something that does not make sense. A venial sin can never be a mortal sin by my understanding no matter how attached you are to it. So a venial sin cannot get you into hell, to my understanding of Catholic theology. So if you intentionally do not plan to stop sinning venially, you have unforgiven sins which means you cannot enter heaven, and thereby means hell. If that would get you into hell, then the CC understanding that venial sins cannot get you into hell is flawed.[/quote]

Spiritual life is not a static proposition, you are going one way or another . Venial sins damage your relationship with God. If you keep damaging your relationship repeatedly sooner or later the relationship is gone. Venial sins are the slippy slope leading to mortal sins. A small lie becomes a bigger lie, a small theft of a pen becomes the bigger theft of money. A disregard towards your fellow driver becomes enjoyed road rage and you ram someone's car and they die. If you deliberately keep committing small sins the bigs ones follow and you will have chosen hell.

So stealing a pen today can lead to hell, because behavior is a road in one direction or another.

HAve you read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis?

[jesussaves]

That's quite an assumption to make, that you're going to commit a mortal sin eventually if you choose to comit venial always. It would seem to me that a person could content themself with their small flaws and not intend to fix them, just stay as they are. If I'm correct there's a flaw. If you're correct, there's not a flaw because my situation cannot occur. I think your assumption is flawed, and unfounded, as far as I can tell.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1213094' date='Mar 13 2007, 02:38 PM']That's quite an assumption to make, that you're going to commit a mortal sin eventually if you choose to comit venial always. It would seem to me that a person could content themself with their small flaws and not intend to fix them, just stay as they are. If I'm correct there's a flaw. If you're correct, there's not a flaw because my situation cannot occur. I think your assumption is flawed, and unfounded, as far as I can tell.[/quote]


Of course the non-catholic always knows better in these discussions. Did you read here post CAREFULLY.

"[b]IF[/b] you deliberately keep committing small sins the bigs ones follow and you will have chosen hell."

"So stealing a pen today [b]CAN [/b]lead to hell".

I highly doudt CMP was saying it is a sure thing that venial will lead to mortal. You of course seem to want to hold on to your alleged flaw because it leaves you feeling comfortable where you are at.

[jesussaves]

It's a flaw that no one has disproven. or reasonably shown to be my mistake. So I stand by it.
Maybe thats not what CMP intended. It doesn't matter, my point still stands.
You did say we would be forgiven when we see Jesus, and I forgot to respond to that. That also is a big assumption to make. Even if I granted purgatory, I have never heard what you said. True, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist your theory in reality. But it seems like a random theory given that most agree or at leave think you have to be forgiven in this life, that's the point of this life. We don't live just so we can just wait till the end. Your theory seems so random then that it seems that you are the one that is grasping straws because it leaves you feeling comfortable where you are at.

[thessalonian]

No, it is not speculation at all. The speculation is all yours.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm[/url]
New Testament

There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, [b]neither in this world, nor in the world to come[/b]." According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words [b]prove that in the next life "some sins will be forgiven a[/b]nd purged away by a certain purifying fire." St. Augustine also argues "that some sinners are not forgiven either in this world or in the next would not be truly said unless there were other [sinners] who, though not forgiven in this world, are forgiven in the world to come" (De Civ. Dei, XXI, xxiv). The same interpretation is given by Gregory the Great (Dial., IV, xxxix); St. Bede (commentary on this text); St. Bernard (Sermo lxvi in Cantic., n. 11) and other eminent theological writers.

A further argument is supplied by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:


"For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble: Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
While this passage presents considerable difficulty, it is regarded by many of the Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved. This, according to Bellarmine (De Purg., I, 5), is the interpretation commonly given by the Fathers and theologians; and he cites to this effect:

St. Ambrose (commentary on the text, and Sermo xx in Ps. cxvii),
St. Jerome, (Comm. in Amos, c. iv),
St. Augustine (Comm. in Ps. xxxvii),
St. Gregory (Dial., IV, xxxix), and
Origen (Hom. vi in Exod.).
See also St. Thomas, "Contra Gentes,", IV, 91. For a discussion of the exegetical problem, see Atzberger, "Die christliche Eschatologie", p. 275.

Edited March 13, 2007 by thessalonian

[jesussaves]

a few points. one is the protestant interpretation of those bible passages. the "in the age to come" is simply stressing that that sin will never being forgiven, not necessarily implying what you say. and the saved as by fire passage refers to when the bad parts of a sinner are cut off andor they finish sanctification depending on your protestant.

also, i've never heard of those passages you cite being referred to for the idea that we would be forgiven when we see Jesus. even the site you copy and pasted that from, the guy said "which the dross of lighter transgression will be burnt away", the gross being the temporal aspects of ones sins. everyone says the temporal elements are what purgatory is about.

can you provide even a catholic website that talks about actual forgiveness when you see Jesus? i can see a point that you might not sin again after seeing him, but i've never heard that you'd be forgiven. not even from a catholic, until now.

[jesussaves]

are you evading the topic because you're comfortable where you are, or do you think we've gotten too complicated to really discern? (i think sometimes you have to give up, at least for awhile when it's too complicated. but here i don't think my question is all that complicated or that we've reached that point)