Small Sins

[Archangel]

It's a good idea to read up on mortal and venial sins in the CCC at 1854-1864.

[jesussaves]

should i take it that everyone else would rather not face the issues posed by this thread too?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I think CCC 1863 has your answer. Gotta run...

[jesussaves]

It would be nice if you would speak instead of paste. it makes it seem you do not understand what you're posting. That said, I do see that it says venial sin does not warrant eternal punishment. Should I take that to mean that you do not have to be perfect to get into heaven, which the bible says you do? Even Catholics say you have to be perfect, yet this says you don't? If i'm reading that right, it's somewhat ambiguous as to how venial sin doesn't warrant eternal punishment. (it does not limit itself to the temporal aspects of one's sins)

[thessalonian]

JS,

You know full well that we have to be perfected to get to heaven. Venial sin would have waranted eternal punishment, had Christ not died for our sins. Without the cleansing of grace, all sin prevents eternal life. I've given you an answer that is certainly in line with Church teaching. You don't except it. There is not much I can do about that. I have complete faith that Jesus will save me completely before heaven. I have complete faith that that last venial sin after I recieve my last eucharist, if I do not recieve last rites will be forgiven by Christ. Confession is about coming to him with our sins. In the physical world we musst confess through a priest. At the end our of lives he is right there and we will know our sins and be sorry for them if they are venial. If mortal we have already chosen our path. You want i's dotted and t's crossed on a very minute piece of theology. Is this an excuse for remaining where you are at?

Peace to you

Edited March 17, 2007 by thessalonian

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Yes, you must be perfect to enter heaven. Purgatory is when the imperfections are cleansed. Just to make it clear, purgatory is not heaven. After the cleansing, you enter heaven perfect. Venial sin does not merit eternal punishment, it merits temporal punishment - hence, purgatory and not hell. God bless!

Edited March 17, 2007 by thedude

[jesussaves]

Even if I am asking for the i's to be dotted and t's crossed, I don't think it's too much to ask here. Unforgiven sins can mean eternal salvation. I think most fall in the category of having small sins they never intend to fix. If you insist after you die you will see Jesus and will be forgiven, I would think you could find at least Catholic literature to back up your stance. I doubt the literature will be very valid if it's random people speculating, and the Church should have addressed this issue given the Prot v. Catholic debate. Regardless, all I ask for are a few sources to back up the claim.
Otherwise, I implore you to ask yourself whether you seriously think your efforts to win your salvation is what God intended, or if God intended to forgive you your sins simply on the basis of Jesus, and santification is REQUIRED as a testimony to that.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1216445' date='Mar 20 2007, 12:22 PM']Even if I am asking for the i's to be dotted and t's crossed, I don't think it's too much to ask here. Unforgiven sins can mean eternal salvation. I think most fall in the category of having small sins they never intend to fix. If you insist after you die you will see Jesus and will be forgiven, I would think you could find at least Catholic literature to back up your stance. I doubt the literature will be very valid if it's random people speculating, and the Church should have addressed this issue given the Prot v. Catholic debate. Regardless, all I ask for are a few sources to back up the claim.
Otherwise, I implore you to ask yourself whether you seriously think your efforts to win your salvation is what God intended, or if God intended to forgive you your sins simply on the basis of Jesus, and santification is REQUIRED as a testimony to that.[/quote]

My efforts to win my salvation? You talk nonsense.

The summa is a good place to start.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4087.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4087.htm[/url]

Venial sin is forgiven in many ways. Find me one place where what I have told you is said to be heretical. Not every doctrine in Catholicism is detailed down to the the last sentence. We have confidence in Christ just as you do. But you make that in to some works righteousness doctrine. Vice is counteracted by virtue and that in itself is a righting of venial sins. We are told that we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the end of life.

You have the same issues. You make sanctification optional. Billy Graham goes through a life of sanctification. If he gets on a bus with a post smoking guy living with a woman and getting drunk all the time and converts him, the second guy does not ahve to go through any sanctification if they go off a cliff and both die according to your theology. Yet if he were to go home he would still struggle with smoking pot and would still be living with the woman. Not really changed.

[jesussaves]

When I say you are earning your salvation, I am acknowledging that it's through God's grance throughout the process. I simply spoke carlessly because you are essentially earning your salvation if you have to become perfect.

I don't think we have the same issues. Growing in sanctification is required. Sanctification to the point of perfection is not. The guy who just converted should have been such that he would have grown in sanctification. God knows these things. Plus, there's nothing saying he can't increase in holiness in the next life.
So as you can imagine, I do not have a problem with speculation into things like that. But with the issue of forgiveness, how can the Catholic Church go so long without clarifying the basics such as forgiveness?

On that note, again, you simply asserted that you will be forgiven, without providing any evidence of what Catholic theology says on the matter. If you don't know of any, just admit it.

Edited March 20, 2007 by jesussaves

[jesussaves]

I am not trying to be rude by asking you or someone else to admit it. I am simply asking for candor. I admit I do not know if that person who just converts will be sanctified or not. All I know is they are forgiven.
I don't even necessarily believe you will be damned for believing what you do, but I have my suspicions. I mean that in Christian charity, so you will repent and trust in the Lord only. If your Church does not even teach what happens when you intend to commit venial sins, again, that's pretty fundamental. All I'm asking for is candor to what you know.
Sometimes I wonder if people here like to debate Budge because he's often obviously wrong, and that helps reaffirm their faith. Whereas they like to ignore this thread because of the implications it has to the invalidity of their current faith.

Edited March 21, 2007 by jesussaves

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

The Church's teaching is in CCC 1863 ([url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM"]link[/url]). I'll post some snippets:

[i]What happens when you intend to commit venial sin?[/i]
"[b]Deliberate and unrepented venial sin[/b] disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. [b]However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God[/b]; it does not break the covenant with God."

[i]What happens after death to those with venial sin?[/i]
"[Venial sin] merits temporal punishment."
(Temporal punishment is purgatory.)

God bless!

Edited March 21, 2007 by thedude

[Archangel]

Don't sweat over your venial sins. You should be concerned about your mortal sins and go to Confession as soon as you can.

[jesussaves]

Purgatory by definition does not forgive venial sins.
The passage you provide says that venial sins, even deliberate, do not beaver dam.
You have to be perfect to enter into heaven.
I don't see how or when venial sins are forgiven so that you can be perfect to enter heaven in the Catholic Church.
If there's no place that says when or where, just admit it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote][b]Pope John Paul II - RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE, par. 32[/b]
...the church knows and teaches that venial sins are forgiven in other ways too-for instance, by acts of sorrow, works of charity, prayer, penitential rites...[/quote]
Much penance takes place in the process of purgatory. In Catholicism, we believe that acts of the faithful on earth can assist them in their sufferings as well. Imperfections like venial sin are purged in purgatory.

Edited March 21, 2007 by thedude

[jesussaves]

That's interesting. Thanks.
But, even with that paradigm, I assume, though I may be mistaken, they are only forgiven if you are sorry for the sins. I submit that there are some venial sins that people content themselves with and have no intention of stopping. I would bet that accurately characterizes at least most people.
So, how do those sins get forgiven?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

When they see their sin as it is in purgatory, they will repent. According to what I read in an answer to a question in the Diocese of Lincoln, NE's newspaper, repetence after death is impossible for mortal sins, but possible for venial:
[url="http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9"]http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9[/url]
The Catechism quotes St. Gregory the Great to this effect in paragraph 1031:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM[/url]

By the way, I neglected to link to the full document of [i]RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE[/i] which I quoted above:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...itentia_en.html[/url]

[Mercy me]

Jesussaves, why who you want to sin continuously and not want to stop? Sin hurts the Lord. Why wouldn't you want to stop doing something that hurts Him?

Sounds like a simple question but it is one that will get you to the answer to your original question.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='thedude' post='1217147' date='Mar 22 2007, 12:44 AM']When they see their sin as it is in purgatory, they will repent. According to what I read in an answer to a question in the Diocese of Lincoln, NE's newspaper, repetence after death is impossible for mortal sins, but possible for venial:
[url="http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9"]http://www.dioceseoflincoln.org/purple/death/death2.htm#9[/url]
The Catechism quotes St. Gregory the Great to this effect in paragraph 1031:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM[/url]

By the way, I neglected to link to the full document of [i]RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE[/i] which I quoted above:
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...itentia_en.html[/url][/quote]


I've answered that berfore. It's not good enough for him because it's not a dogmatic statement by the magesterium. He seems to have this hangup that everything is dogma and if it's not he doesn't like the answer.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1216712' date='Mar 20 2007, 09:50 PM']I am not trying to be rude by asking you or someone else to admit it. I am simply asking for candor. I admit I do not know if that person who just converts will be sanctified or not. All I know is they are forgiven.
I don't even necessarily believe you will be damned for believing what you do, but I have my suspicions. I mean that in Christian charity, so you will repent and trust in the Lord only. If your Church does not even teach what happens when you intend to commit venial sins, again, that's pretty fundamental. All I'm asking for is candor to what you know.
Sometimes I wonder if people here like to debate Budge because he's often obviously wrong, and that helps reaffirm their faith. Whereas they like to ignore this thread because of the implications it has to the invalidity of their current faith.[/quote]


No, I think they don't post on this thread because it's been answered adequately and they are not all that concerned about it. I personally don't have ANY venial sins that I intend on recommitting willfully and knowingly and I suspect most on this board would like to get rid of them all as well. Your question is a good enough one I guess but it is taught by the Church that all sin get's cleansed by the grace of Christ before entry to heaven. I don't know how our trust could be any less in Christ in this matter. Only because you want it to be I guess.

[quote]I admit I do not know if that person who just converts will be sanctified or not.[/quote]

The doctrine of imputed righteousness says that we are not sanctified and are righteous in Christ when we become Christians. Catholicism in fact says we are fully sanctified at baptism, given a true clean slate, though still with our tendancy toward sin. The sin is actually and in fact gone. But not protestants. Now if righteousness is only infused, ie. we're snow covered dung and yet nothing unclean shall enter heaven something's gotta give fore this new convert dude. It's pretty clear. But of course you cannot admit it because that point to purgatory.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1216574' date='Mar 20 2007, 04:54 PM']I don't think we have the same issues. Growing in sanctification is required. Sanctification to the point of perfection is not. The guy who just converted should have been such that he would have grown in sanctification. God knows these things. Plus, there's nothing saying he can't increase in holiness in the next life.[/quote]

Even speculation that allows for purgatory. We MUST be perfect to enter heaven. Not one tendancy toward anger or lust. Not one mention of a negative word. No doudt or fear of any sort. Yes, sanctification to the point of perfection is in fact required. We cannot become further sanctified in heaven. It has to happen before heaven. ALL OF IT. We can grow in understanding in heaven, for all eternity. But that's not the same as sanctification.