Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Prove to me, without scripture (since I don't believe in it), that the Catholic Church is the only true religion, that Jesus was God, and all the other stuff you believe in. If it's absolute truth, and if it's the only true path, then it must be easy to prove, because surely a merciful God wouldn't make the only true way to salvation something difficult to believe in. Right?
dUSt Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Why do you need proof? Just listen to your soul.
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 I'm not even sure I have a soul. I know for certain that I have a brain, which is why I need proof.
hyperdulia again Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Nathan what you have asked is impossible. People will try, maybbe some will quote Auquinas...but proving the Church without Sacred Scripture is a bit like [innsert analogy].
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 Then I'm not sure how the Church expects non-Christians to believe.
Mary's Knight, La Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 speech on top of dUST's answer I would like to add the following: you're asking something finite to prove the infinite even in math and physics that's impossible the finite can merely indicate the infinite you want proof catholicism is true go to a catholic church assuming there's one by you that still has an unlocked door and sit in a pew that's as close to the tabernacle as you dare and in the relative quiet of your own mind and heart ask God, if He exists, to show you that He's there and that He loves you. then comes the hard part... you wait... for a minute, an hour, a day, a lifetime... but you then have to look for how He's gonna do it, if we're right then in the past He's used everything from huge pillars of fire to the whispering of the wind you've got to be vigilant enough to see it but if we're right He'll do it in a way you understand when you're ready here's a bigger challenge if you think you can handle it, take up Pascal's wager go talk to the nearest priest and he'll be able to tell you more about what will be necessary for you... peace and I sincerely hope you're up to my challenges
Aloysius Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 it's impossible for a non-Christian to believe, on one level cause that's a paradox as soon as you believe you're Christian and on another level because the message of the Cross is foolishness to outsiders :cool:
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 So basically, you all have no answers except feelings (which are condemned as an inauthentic way of discerning truth in another thread started by another Catholic)? That seems awfully inconsistent.
Aloysius Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 not feelings... faith is not a feeling it is an action of the soul transcending feelings.. sometimes my feelings make me HATE the Church, completely dispise it, yet i continue with faith and believe in the Church. my faith is not affected by my feelings, and thus it has been proven to me that my faith is not a feeling.
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 But why should I have faith in that which cannot be proven?
Jesus' Little Bride Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Faith remains when all your feelings are dried up and withered away, or when they tell you the Truth isn't worth searching for: it's too much work for your brain, let alone your hypothetical soul. Faith and Reason are the two wings by which man ascends to God, Pope John Paul II says. A bird cannot fly with one wing.
phatcatholic Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 not feelings... faith is not a feeling it is an action of the soul transcending feelings.. sometimes my feelings make me HATE the Church, completely dispise it, yet i continue with faith and believe in the Church. my faith is not affected by my feelings, and thus it has been proven to me that my faith is not a feeling. yet, faith is aided by logic, reasoning, and the senses. God gave us everything we need to know him. come on pham, we must provide answers w/ more substance, especially to a long-lost brother. i am challenged by this request, and i wish to respond accordingly. however, time currently does not permit. expect more from me later. come on pham...........step it up while i'm in class pax christi, phatcatholic
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 (edited) But why should I have faith in something for which there is no shred of proof? Edited January 27, 2004 by Speech
Aloysius Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 it's supported by many facts, maybe not completely proven, but confirmed throughout history. in the fact that the Church is the oldest existing institution (it's more than an institution, but yeah) there is absolutely no man made institution on earth that is 2000 years old, theres somethin special here. also, Fatima, the thousands of witnessess... the stigmata, well i guess you can't prove that in like, the medievil saints, but St. Padre Pio was examined by a doctor who couldn't find an explanation. the tilma of Juan Diego has never been explained by science, obstitritions, optomitrists, and all sorts of experts have examined it. it is impossible for it to have been painted by human hand. the shroud of Turin, that image is completely unexplained. the blood type found in it is AB, the same type found in the miracle of Lanciano when the bread and wine actually appeared to be the body and blood and science examined it, it's human blood and flesh from the human heart, it has been completely incorrupt for many centuries. ummm... history has never proved the Bible wrong. how bout the amazing number of conversions from the time of the apostles, without any military advance like the Muslims or anything like that how bout the amazing number of conversions completely offsetting the reformation for Our Lady of Guadeloupe. :cool:
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 An old roommate of mine was an atheistic guy at one point. He said he took a class where they read a bunch of classical greek philosophy and it got him interested in spiritual things. Just for fun he read some Hindu writings and Buddhist stuff. After a while he decided to scope out the Bible because he was just curious about it, he had no interest in Christianity. He said by the time he finished reading the Gospels he knew that Christianity was legit, he believed in the Christ. The point is faith is a grace, in a way it's a miracle. Knowledge of God and a relationship with God is a gift that we don't merit. After my roommate believed in his heart and said "no man ever spoke like this man", he tried praying and asking God to send him to His true Church. He ended up being baptized into the Catholic Church. Another roommate of mine was a staunch athiest (raised that way) who only after years of study and philosophy converted to the Faith. He read C.S. Lewis' writings several times, Cardinal Newman's writings, some of St. Thomas, Chesterton, Augustine, and still resisted even believing in God though he was obviously being drawn toward something. He told me how he would go on internet forums and start debates with Christians about the existence of God and all kinds of other things. I think one day he was reading some of Newman's 'apologia pro vita sua' when something he had read before suddenly struck him in an unexpected way and suddenly he found himself unable to disbelieve the existence of God. These days he's pursuing the priesthood. There is no one liner that someone on a forum can post that will solve everything for you (at least not that I know of). God draws people to Himself in different ways. The best answer I can give you would be to pray and ask God (if He's there) to reveal Himself to you, and put you on His path toward truth, love and eternity. Peace.
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 Aloysius writes: it's supported by many facts, maybe not completely proven, but confirmed throughout history. in the fact that the Church is the oldest existing institution (it's more than an institution, but yeah) there is absolutely no man made institution on earth that is 2000 years old, theres somethin special here. Ever heard of Judaism or Hinduism? also, Fatima, the thousands of witnessess... That's not proof. It could have been mass hysteria. There's no documented evidence of this: no video, for instance. the stigmata, well i guess you can't prove that in like, the medievil saints, but St. Padre Pio was examined by a doctor who couldn't find an explanation. The lack of a medical explanation doesn't assume that the explanation is God. There was no medical explanation for small pox, at one time. That didn't mean it was from God. the tilma of Juan Diego has never been explained by science, obstitritions, optomitrists, and all sorts of experts have examined it. it is impossible for it to have been painted by human hand. But how does that prove that Mary put it there? The lack of an explanation does not automatically mean that God did it. the shroud of Turin, that image is completely unexplained. the blood type found in it is AB, the same type found in the miracle of Lanciano when the bread and wine actually appeared to be the body and blood and science examined it, it's human blood and flesh from the human heart, it has been completely incorrupt for many centuries. I have no argument against this, except that the Vatican has said that the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be Jesus' shroud. ummm... history has never proved the Bible wrong. Really? So we're all descended from Adam and Eve, there was a flood that destroyed the whole earth, and the world is exactly as old as the Bible claims it is? how bout the amazing number of conversions from the time of the apostles, without any military advance like the Muslims or anything like that How about the amazing number of willful conversions to Islam? Does that make it true? how bout the amazing number of conversions completely offsetting the reformation for Our Lady of Guadeloupe. How about them? People always do drastic things when they're hysterical.
hyperdulia again Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Neither judaism or hinduism are "institutional religions"..they both give a TREMENDOUS amount of latitude regarding belief...in fact we're all hindus right now, and since my female line ancestors were Jewish, I'm a very bad Jew to the Orthodox branch of that faith.
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Posted January 27, 2004 Neither judaism or hinduism are "institutional religions"..they both give a TREMENDOUS amount of latitude regarding belief...in fact we're all hindus right now, and since my female line ancestors were Jewish, I'm a very bad Jew to the Orthodox branch of that faith. And without a formal renunciation, I'm still a very bad Catholic. Rabbinical Judaism most certainly is an institutional religion, and it's as old as the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church is also as old as the Catholic Church. Which of these three holds the truth? Rabbinical Judaism, Catholicism, or Orthodoxy?
ironmonk Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Prove to me, without scripture (since I don't believe in it), that the Catholic Church is the only true religion, that Jesus was God, and all the other stuff you believe in. If it's absolute truth, and if it's the only true path, then it must be easy to prove, because surely a merciful God wouldn't make the only true way to salvation something difficult to believe in. Right? This article is bulletproof... http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html Prove that it isn't. To say prove it shows that you are rejecting God, by rejecting the ones He sent. You've seen the proof... you've already amply proven yourself wrong when looking at your alter ego posts of "Good Friday" -ironmonk
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