Prove It.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Man, Peter Kreeft is getting old!

[Speech]

Ironmonk's right, actually. I do reject the Catholic Church, knowing full well that it's the source of truth and just simply not caring. I just wanted to see if anyone could prove it, and it looks as if he could, with one article that I haven't the intelligence to dispute.

But I'm still not coming back to the Church, because whether or not it's true makes very little difference to me. Carry on.

[M.SIGGA]

when you truly believe and totally offer up all your sorrows and doubts to Jesus you are transformed by his amazing power. the Church even calls some things mysteries, so there is no total explaination possible. have faith and believe and God will have a miraculous effect on your life; everyday miracles that cannont be proven by any scientist or psychologist. it all starts with faith.

[Aloysius]

i couldn't get my responses to post when i first tried...

Ever heard of Judaism or Hinduism?

they are not institutions.

hinduism has existed for a long time, originating from unhistorical myths and what not. from the very begining it was just different villages coming up with different stories about their own gods, and it was all combined into one religion at one point or another, and now it's just a big glob of 'all religions are true'

Judaism was founded by God. their ppl are sustained, currently their faith is weakening and falling to liberalism because they missed the messiah. the truly devout of them are eventually realizing the truth of Christ.

That's not proof. It could have been mass hysteria. There's no documented evidence of this: no video, for instance.

i told you, not proof, but just lil facts that show a lil evidence. it cannot be prooven by human standards.

The lack of a medical explanation doesn't assume that the explanation is God. There was no medical explanation for small pox, at one time. That didn't mean it was from God.

aight... so you think it was some sort of disease? have you ever heard of a disease that has only happened to ppl who pray a whole bunch??

But how does that prove that Mary put it there? The lack of an explanation does not automatically mean that God did it.

but where did it come from? it's either God or aliens.. you choose. which one makes more sense?

I have no argument against this, except that the Vatican has said that the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be Jesus' shroud.

when did it say that?????

Really? So we're all descended from Adam and Eve, there was a flood that destroyed the whole earth, and the world is exactly as old as the Bible claims it is?

the Bible doesn't give an age for the earth, private interpretation gives an age for the earth. who says we're not descended from adam and eve, all those other fossils have never been proven to be related to us. is it more likely they're a bunch of extinct species or that they changed into us somehow.

the flood... well there was a flood in that area... what if the earth was the known earth? if we only knew of north america and all of north america flooded, wouldn't we say the whole earth flooded.

How about the amazing number of willful conversions to Islam? Does that make it true?

i mentioned that... we didn't do it by the military. from the earliest times of islam they set out across the arab world to spread their religion by force.

How about them? People always do drastic things when they're hysterical.

so every single person who has ever followed a religion was hysterical?

[Speech]

M.SIGGA writes:

it all starts with faith.

That must be my problem, then. I don't have any.

[jasJis]

Speech,

You can't ask a question in a vacum. What is proof? How can anything be proven? Can you prove that you exist? What are your standards for fact? The list is endless.

Nothing can really be proven without a doubt, including the idea that you really exist and you aren't dreaming right this second like in a Matrix or something.

If you want proof, you'll never get it. Logic and reason will enable you to choose between things what is more reasonable given what you can observe.

Finally, spend time in prayer, and apply reason to it. Is it reasonable that God should be a dispensing machine to give you all you want and still provide free will and limited autonomy? Or is it more reasonable that a good thing can be chosen in every single situation, no matter how horrible it is.

No body can convince you of this, you have to ponder these things, without personal emotional demands, and with honest openess that it May be possible. Anybody who tells you they've always believed in God and never had doubts of varying degree is not telling you the truth unless their understanding is very, very shallow and they aren't being honest with themselves.

Enjoy it. Believing in God is a process, not a single instance. If God was just a FACT, you either know it or don't. If God is no less than a complete and unique person as you and I, you can spend a lifetime growing to know Him more and more. I've been married more than 20 years, and I don't know my wife's entire personage. I know her so well that I know I can look forward to 30 more years of deepening intimacy and discovery. God's even more than that.

[Anna]

St. Bernadette is credited with saying, "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."

I hope, dear Speech, that the flame of Faith will be rekindled in your soul soon.

Stay with us.

And please, visit Jesus.

You know where to find Him.

Pax Christi. <><

[IXpenguin21]

Prove to me, without scripture (since I don't believe in it), that the Catholic Church is the only true religion, that Jesus was God, and all the other stuff you believe in. If it's absolute truth, and if it's the only true path, then it must be easy to prove, because surely a merciful God wouldn't make the only true way to salvation something difficult to believe in. Right?

that's like saying to a doctor, "prove to me that you are a doctor because i wasn't with you when you went to med-school and i don't believe in the piece of paper that says you are"

if you want, you can trust him and let him slice you open and hope for the best.

the fruits of his work will prove his status.

the Church's documents (not scripture) are SATURATED with scripture! that's the basis of it's doctrines! you cannot seperate the two (scripture and church). i think every single church militant will agree on me with this one, and so will Pope Leo XIII, who wrote an encyclical on it.

[hyperdulia again]

Nathan, faith is about 75% will.

Most days, it takes a serious conscious effort for me to not go and become a [just about anything other than Catholic] and I'm not even talking about avoiding sin, but just avoiding apostasy. It's hard.

[Speech]

Just pray for me, if you would. I think I'm crazy or something.

[Aloysius]

i understand, speech, i understand. it happens to all of us at some point.. some to a larger degree than others. love ya bro.

Edited January 27, 2004 by Aloysius

[Speech]

Love ya too, dude, but... I'm not foundsheep. :rolling:

[christopher]

It's also like Jesus said to "doubting" Thomas;"Now you have seen and believe, happy are those who believe and have not yet seen."

Don't worry my little atheist child, I was once where you are not long ago. I used to just totally tell people off for talking about God. I would say "where is he?" Then over some of the worst years of my life, which thank Our Lord are over, he began slowly to speak to my heart. He did it through people; beautiful girls named Merri Kristi, Christine,meaning "Christ-like", suffering for others out of love. He, with especially the help of Mary, brought me through some awful things and now into the church where I am CONSTANTLY learning new and beautiful things about history, heaven, humanity, theology, and how to break down with humility before others;BEFORE WE DIE, together. The overall point is that we begin to live more like little children,with love of one another, we begin to have faith, and vice versa. You can't pick up the Good Book, thinking of it only as literature and expect to be saved. You must take it less literally and understand that it is SPIRITUALLY happening now and forever in our hearts and in heaven, especially the Gospels. And you must wait until you are ready to speak to him from yor heart and when you are he will be there waiting to answer as he is now. Dominus Vobiscum.

[Aloysius]

Love ya too, dude, but... I'm not foundsheep.  :rolling:

lol i was thinkin about how i just passed foundsheep up in post count!

maybe ure just a lost sheep in need of becoming a foundsheep... maybe it was providence that i made that silly mistake! ^_^

Edited January 27, 2004 by Aloysius

[Anna]

Just pray for me, if you would. I think I'm crazy or something.

Nathan, you've been through a lot this year...just these past couple of months alone. God understands.

Give yourself time to heal, too.

When you feel lovey hugs wrapped around you, know that it's either your gramma's prayers, or my guardian angel's wings...

(((hugs and prayers)))

[M.SIGGA]

That must be my problem, then. I don't have any.

you have all my prayers in the world man. we all go through ups and downs in our life, just don't totally lose hope. i understand that's easy to read Scripture and say that you have faith with words, but truly believing with your entire heart is a whole other matter. give it time and don't purposely reject the possibility of finding faith. that's all i can say, and the rest is personal between you and God. I hope you reach Peace.

[phatcatholic]

Ironmonk's right, actually.  I do reject the Catholic Church, knowing full well that it's the source of truth and just simply not caring.  I just wanted to see if anyone could prove it, and it looks as if he could, with one article that I haven't the intelligence to dispute.

But I'm still not coming back to the Church, because whether or not it's true makes very little difference to me.  Carry on.

from a psychological standpoint, i see resolution coming through your answer to the question, "why?"

you know the Church is the source of truth, but u don't care.

me: why don't u care?

you: because ________

me: why?

you: because ________

me: why?

you: because _________

engage in this process until you have approached the very heart of the matter. therein lies your answer. of course, this is not nearly as easy as it sounds. for one, it takes tremendous will to continually confront urself in this manner. every voice inside your head will tell you to quit asking questions. "it doesn't matter" they will say. but, if u are intent on finding ur answer, u will carry on.

this will also take tremendous honesty. it will require you to admit to yourself exactly why you do everything that you do. you will have to admit to yourself your motivations behind everything. you will realize that you are making bad decisions, that you are purposely doing things that you should not do, that you do things even though they are bad for you. you will have to acknowledge the effect that your entire world from the very beginning has had upon you. this takes honesty. for example, its hard for some girls to admit to themselves that they are screwing around w/ guys and allowing guys to use them all b/c they have a low self-esteem. its hard for them to admit to themselves that they do these things--knowing full well how much it hurts them--all b/c for a few moments they feel beautiful.

finally, it takes love. love for others, but most importantly, love for yourself. there will be voices inside that tell you ur not good enough, not smart enough, not worthy enough, not ______ enough. in times like this you must fight for yourself. fight for the love that created this universe and created you. love is good, right? you want what is good, right? well, where there is hatred (even for yourself), there is not love. where there are insults, there is not love. God is Love, b/c there is no greater being then God and no greater emotion than love. we all want to be loved. search your soul and u will find this need w/in yourself. If God exists, and love exists, and love is what we all want, then it is love that you must fight for. when the voices inside of you tell you that you cannot go on, then u know that those voices are not of love. Love wants you to go on, love urges you on, b/c that's what you want. and love is what God is. and God wants you. God has created in us all an INESCAPABLE longing to be w/ him. and many other inflluences will attempt to impede this process. but u must fight for the only thing that is good in this world. you must fight for love. you must fight for God.

i see two statements that currently keep you from God and His Church:

1. i don't care that Truth is in God and His Church

2. i don't have faith.

pick one of those statments and begin to ask "why?" once you have finally discovered the heart of the problem. then you ask the "what".

"well, what do i do w/ this 'why' that i have discovered?"

we can help you w/ that too.

i will pray for you. i love you.

phatcatholic

Edited January 27, 2004 by phatcatholic

[littleflower+JMJ]

Just pray for me, if you would.  I think I'm crazy or something.

speech you have my prayers and i have been meaning ot tell you that i have been praying my rosary for you already!!

remember speech, God is the closest to us when we feel the farthest away!!

his always there! he only asks that we turn to him! you have our prayers speech!we care about you! and so does the BLessed Mother!! do not forget her for She hasn't forgotten YOU speech, shes keeping Her promise and only wishes to guide all Her children thru the light and darknesses of life...

nathan, i'm planning on consecrating myself to the immaculata mary like you did long ago and its all because of you, nathan, when you made a thread about it when you consecrated yourself to Mary, and encouraged all of us, and i thank you for it was your invitation that has led me to it....i remember you saying that you know that no matter what happens that you will be guided and cared for by the Blessed Mother, thru your promise and Her's!!

do not forget that nathan! the Blessed mother keeps her promise!!

:wub: :wub: :wub:

[Dave]

Nathan, you got my prayers too. Remember what I told you earlier -- don't give up. It's hard, I know. You know that God is merciful. He'll strengthen you to come back where you need to be if only you let Him. But the key is not to lose hope. God bless.

[littleflower+JMJ]

oh my grammar is awful! please excuse it! :sadder: