Budge, I Have A Question For You?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

There is a huge difference between veneration and worship. When I had to leave Saudi Arabia and got too homesick I used to kiss the photo of my parents that stood beside my bed. I certainly wasn't worshipping them. Your interpretation of what a 'graven image' is reminds me a lot of the Salafi Muslim interpretation: all photos and pieces of artwork that depict living creatures are to be banned.

Idol-worshippers believe that God is actually [i]resident[/i] in the idol, that the idol [i]is[/i] God. Catholics don't believe that God lives in icons or statues any more than I believe that my parents live inside their photograph.

As you have already been asked numerous times on this board, what do you make of God actively [i]commanding[/i] His people to create ikons or images? Such as the decorations on the Ark of the Covenant and the bronze serpent that Moses had to hold up before the suffering Israelites? Was the bronze serpent actually God? No. Was the bronze serpent a valuable reminder of God and His power? Yes.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229435' date='Apr 4 2007, 10:58 AM']Hey God can deal with me then.[/quote]That's a cavalier attitude toward sin. Usually, Christians look to repentance as a response to their sinful actions.

[quote name='Budge' post='1229435' date='Apr 4 2007, 10:58 AM']I think Hes going to be a lot more upset with you folks messing around with grave images and going with a church that says SURE YOU CAN, when He SAY DONT DO IT.[/quote]Well, that's the tried and true attitude of "worrying about the splinter in someone else's eye", isn't it?

As you are contemplating the acceptance of your sinfulness, you might want to wrap your head around the Old Testament accounts of the Israelites being commanded to make statues, in Exodus 25, 1 Chron 28, etc ([url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp"]link[/url]). Why were the Israelites "messing around with graven images"? Why did they devote so much of value (e.g. gold, fine linens, etc) to these objects used in their worship? Were they breaking the commandments of Budgianity?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229431' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:55 AM']Yeah buried in paragrah 4 never shown on the official lists.
Just more of the BIBLE SAYS DONT, and CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS YOU CAN![/quote]
Budge, you don't like our numbering of the Ten Commandments. If we had the Protestant numbering, our commandments would read the same as yours and we would be told to make no images at all. That, however, makes no sense. As you know, God Himself tells the Israelites to make images. God only gets offended when they worship their images. That clearly means that the prohibition against graven images is not meant to stand on its own. It must be in a larger context. Since God only gets offended when people worship images, it makes perfect sense that that context is the First Commandment against worshipping false Gods. So, in that context, God is listing the kinds of false gods they can't make, and one of those is graven images. Our images, however, are not considered gods, either by us or by others.

God is not inconsistent. If He says not to do something and makes that law abide forever, He's not going to tell us later to go ahead and do it. The only way that the Torah does not contradict itself in this regard is if the Catholic numbering of the Ten Commandments is correct.

[Budge]

The snake was BROKEN into bits.

The cheribium on the ark faced inward, had no names, and no one payed them any attention.
[quote]Catholics don't believe that God lives in icons or statues any more than I believe that my parents live inside their photograph.[/quote]

So when all the statues start bleeding and crying or moving like at Knock Ireland--a papally approved one by the way...

what is INSIDE them making them do that?

[img]http://www.nbc10.com/2006/0425/8988663_240X180.jpg[/img]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230045' date='Apr 4 2007, 05:22 PM']The snake was BROKEN into bits.

The cheribium on the ark faced inward, had no names, and no one payed them any attention.
So when all the statues start bleeding and crying or moving like at Knock Ireland--a papally approved one by the way...

what is INSIDE them making them do that?

[img]http://www.nbc10.com/2006/0425/8988663_240X180.jpg[/img][/quote]
It's okay to disobey the commandment as long as your images are facing inward and unnamed, then? I don't see God making that exception in your version of the Ten Commandments. Are you adding to Scripture?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]So when all the statues start bleeding and crying or moving like at Knock Ireland--a papally approved one by the way...

what is INSIDE them making them do that?[/quote]When Jesus was crucified the earth split and the veil in the Temple was torn in two. The veil was an inanimate object. It had no soul. Yet God could still use it as a sign of His power. In the Bible there are numerous examples of God using created things to make Himself known to people. Or do you genuinely believe that the burning bush at Sinai [i]was[/i] God?

[quote]The snake was BROKEN into bits.[/quote]

Not because it was an evil graven image that people had been worshipping, but because it had served its purpose. There was no further need for it.

[quote]The cheribium on the ark faced inward, had no names, and no one payed them any attention.[/quote]

If they weren't necessary and they didn't add anything to the ark itself, why bother even to put them there in the first place? Are you suggesting that God specifically requested His followers to make pointless objects that no one was ever going to look at really?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229431' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:55 AM']Yeah buried in paragrah 4 never shown on the official lists.[/quote]

Not true, your statement is false.

[quote name='Budge' post='1229431' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:55 AM']Just more of the BIBLE SAYS DONT, and CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS YOU CAN![/quote]

Not true your statement is false.

"Graven images" which the 1st commandment speaks of are like the golden cafe, which are worshiped as a god. God forbids worshiping false gods, if it is an "image" or "spirit." But God does not forbid images to be used in worship, just forbids worshiping the images.

Example when the Israelites where still walking threw the desert they are plague with poison snakes biting them so God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a cross, and whom ever looks on that snake is not effected by the snake bites. Which is a "preview" of Christ on his cross. The bronze serpent looks like the other poison snakes, but does not kill them, Christ, on His cross looks like a criminal but is the savior.

The ark of the convent is another image, used in worship...
[img]http://www.holyangels.com/images/ARK-OF-THE-COVENANT.GIF[/img]
clearly it has to angels atop of it made of gold, which God commanded Moses to make.

Even the Bible is an image, but we don't worship the bible, the paper and ink. Its used in worship. Most in the 20th century can read, others in the past could not, many today can not read, the point is Catholic icons and statues tell a story just like the bible. As long as they are used in worship and not worshiped they are not the "Graven images" the 1st commandment forbids.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1230113' date='Apr 4 2007, 07:29 PM']Not true, your statement is false.
Not true your statement is false.

"Graven images" which the 1st commandment speaks of are like the golden cafe, which are worshiped as a god. God forbids worshiping false gods, if it is an "image" or "spirit." But God does not forbid images to be used in worship, just forbids worshiping the images.

Example when the Israelites where still walking threw the desert they are plague with poison snakes biting them so God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a cross, and whom ever looks on that snake is not effected by the snake bites. Which is a "preview" of Christ on his cross. The bronze serpent looks like the other poison snakes, but does not kill them, Christ, on His cross looks like a criminal but is the savior.

The ark of the convent is another image, used in worship...
[img]http://www.holyangels.com/images/ARK-OF-THE-COVENANT.GIF[/img]
clearly it has to angels atop of it made of gold, which God commanded Moses to make.

Even the Bible is an image, but we don't worship the bible, the paper and ink. Its used in worship. Most in the 20th century can read, others in the past could not, many today can not read, the point is Catholic icons and statues tell a story just like the bible. As long as they are used in worship and not worshiped they are not the "Graven images" the 1st commandment forbids.[/quote]



That was awesome! now if she can understand. lol

[Socrates]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1230123' date='Apr 4 2007, 06:35 PM']That was awesome! now if she can understand. lol[/quote]
I've made that point at least three times in other debates - the ark, the bronze serpents, the decorations in the temple - it's just one of those things in the Bible fundies refuse to acknowledge.

And, Budge, isn't that an IMAGE of Moses on your avatar??

If Catholics use images of holy people, you rant about how idolotrous it is, yet images are okay for you?
Do I see a double standard here?

[Budge]

Nothing but excuses, to say WE CAN, when GOD SAYS THOU SHALT NOT...

[notice the faces of the decorations on the ark are covered, and they are NOT facing out? and that bronze snake you love so much...it was SMASHED INTO BITS]

God was talking about religious WORSHIP of images, but somehow that distinction escapes you.

stuff like THIS:

[img]http://www.chnonline.org/2004/2004-08-05/statue.jpg[/img]


[b]Exd 20:4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:[/b]
[quote]It's okay to disobey the commandment as long as your images are facing inward and unnamed, then? I don't see God making that exception in your version of the Ten Commandments. Are you adding to Scripture?[/quote]

The JEWS NEVER worshipped the cheribuim on the ark.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Budge

[Budge]

[quote][b]But God[u] does not forbid[/u] [u]images[/u] to [u]be used in worship[/u], just [u]forbids[/u] [u]worshiping [/u]the images.[/b][/quote]

Wow some of you are very good at those twisty sentences tht are self contradicting.

[img]http://www.stellamaris.net/silo/51.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.inplainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

So how do you tell the intent? If you talk at your parent's gravestone, are you actually addressing the stone? Or perhaps the lifeless corpse underneath the ground? (my dad is dead, so you ninnies save your sensitivity hoohah, I'll trade dead dad jokes with the best of you.)

I suppose only Catholics are incapable of avoiding worshipping the image itself--which is the true meaning of idolatry--the worshipping of the image, not the thing it symbolizes.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230286' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:42 PM']Wow some of you are very good at those twisty sentences tht are self contradicting.[/quote]

I'm sorry you dont understand the true word of God, Budge.

Anyone else remember when King David danced naked before the Ark of the Covenant? Budge doesn't... I can just image what she would say if a Pope did the same.

Edited April 5, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[CatholicCid]

If we are made in the image of God, and we are not to make anything in likeness to anything in Heaven or Earth, then wouldn't this count to pictures of humans since we are made in the image and likeness of God and God is in Heaven.
That would seem pretty literal to me if we held it 100%.

Edited April 5, 2007 by CatholicCid

[KnightofChrist]

Jesus Christ Himself is the image of God. The only "image" Catholics worship, no matter how hard Satan deceives people like Budge.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230277' date='Apr 4 2007, 09:36 PM']God was talking about religious WORSHIP of images, but somehow that distinction escapes you.[/quote]A distinction need to be made here. God said no GRAVEN images. He didn't say no images at all. So, budge, what to you is a "graven" image and what is a normal one? Because in your picture, I just see a normal statue. The only thing special about it is that it's made of ice(?), which is extra hard to do. An image is graven only if you make it so, and in this case, you make it so only if you start worshipping it, which we do not.

[quote]The JEWS NEVER worshipped the cheribuim on the ark.[/quote]And neither have we. We don't worship the statues of Mary. We don't worship the statues of the saints. We don't even worship the crucifix. We use them as tools to help us concentrate - just as anyone would use a picture of someone to help them concentrate on that person. We've told you this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and yet you still don't believe us.

Here, try some logic: Either we are lying about worshiping the statues or we are not. If we are not, you have nothing to worry about. If we are lying(which we are not), then one could logically conclude that we are doing so with malicious intent to drag down others to hell with us, in which case we would be evil and unsavable anyway. So, whether we are lying or not, there is absolutely no point to this line of attacks.

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1230618' date='Apr 4 2007, 11:51 PM']
If we are made in the image of God, and we are not to make anything in likeness to anything in Heaven or Earth, then wouldn't this count to pictures of humans since we are made in the image and likeness of God and God is in Heaven.
That would seem pretty literal to me if we held it 100%.[/quote]As well, if we are made in the image of God and we are to have no likenss to anything in heaven or earth, then reproduction itself is a sin, as it creates another person, who is in the likeness of God. And that's just silly.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Farsight one

[Budge]

[quote]Anyone else remember when King David danced naked before the Ark of the Covenant?[/quote]

He was dancing before God.

not before lifeless golden angels that Im sure he just thought of as decoration.

[Budge]

[quote]We don't worship the statues of Mary.[/quote]

You can keep telling me that but the ACTIONS say different, especially when same statues are perceived as having powers within them to cry, move and bleed and "special" statues like the Fatima one given world-tours.

Then add to the fact that these statues are definitely "SERVED" as outlawed by God, covered in jewels, given processions, and incense.

[img]http://www.marypages.com/BeauraingP.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.cdom.org/wtc/wtc_archives/wtc101200/wtc_pages/fatima.jpg[/img]

[Budge]

[quote]Here, try some logic: Either we are lying about worshiping the statues or we are not. If we are not, you have nothing to worry about. If we are lying(which we are not), then one could logically conclude that we are doing so with malicious intent to drag down others to hell with us, in which case we would be evil and unsavable anyway. So, whether we are lying or not, there is absolutely no point to this line of attacks.[/quote]

I dont bleieve you are puposefully lying but have been deceived with that dulia and latria nonsense meant to compliate the meaning of worship, and by the example of a church that tells you even though God DIRECTLY says something...NO GRAVEN IMAGES to be used in religious worsip...your church SAYS HEY THEY ARE OK...

[Brother Adam]

Aw Budge, not all images are graven. You know that, and we've already pointed it out. Let's face it, your lies about our faith are never going to deceive anyone except for the very weak minded (to which you will have to make an account for before Jesus at your judgment), and the efforts of Catholics here to ask you to stop lying aren't going to work either. Apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in your heart you are just going to keep repeating the same lies over and over again as you have for years now, and the good folks here will just keep correcting you to no avail over and over again.

Now we have entered the Easter Triduum when we celebrate the Passion and Resurrection of Jesus, the most solemn time of the Church year. I'd ask you (and everyone) to consider spending these three days meditating and praying on the mystery of our salvation in Jesus, but I'm sure to you, these three days remembering Jesus are just "Catholic" so you'll just find a way to "bash it".