Budge, I Have A Question For You?

[Budge]

Yeah buried in paragrah 4 never shown on the official lists.

[quote]2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:[/quote]

Just more of the BIBLE SAYS DONT, and CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS YOU CAN!

Edited April 4, 2007 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229426' date='Apr 4 2007, 10:42 AM']Hmm a thread that amounts to LIAR LIAR pants on fire, when I have more then shown that graven images is left out of Catholic 10 commandment lists.[/quote]If that's how you rationalize breaking the commandments of God, that's your prerogative. All sinners have an excuse for their sin.

[Aloysius]

what's more official than the Catechism?

[Budge]

[quote]If that's how you rationalize breaking the commandments of God, that's your prerogative. All sinners have an excuse for their sin.[/quote]

Hey God can deal with me then.

I think Hes going to be a lot more upset with you folks messing around with grave images and going with a church that says SURE YOU CAN, when He SAY DONT DO IT.

[Phoenix Reborn]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229435' date='Apr 4 2007, 06:58 AM']Hey God can deal with me then.

I think Hes going to be a lot more upset with you folks messing around with grave images and going with a church that says SURE YOU CAN, when He SAY DONT DO IT.[/quote]

The only true grave image here is your avatar, it's a mockery to God's 10 Commandments.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

There is a huge difference between veneration and worship. When I had to leave Saudi Arabia and got too homesick I used to kiss the photo of my parents that stood beside my bed. I certainly wasn't worshipping them. Your interpretation of what a 'graven image' is reminds me a lot of the Salafi Muslim interpretation: all photos and pieces of artwork that depict living creatures are to be banned.

Idol-worshippers believe that God is actually [i]resident[/i] in the idol, that the idol [i]is[/i] God. Catholics don't believe that God lives in icons or statues any more than I believe that my parents live inside their photograph.

As you have already been asked numerous times on this board, what do you make of God actively [i]commanding[/i] His people to create ikons or images? Such as the decorations on the Ark of the Covenant and the bronze serpent that Moses had to hold up before the suffering Israelites? Was the bronze serpent actually God? No. Was the bronze serpent a valuable reminder of God and His power? Yes.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229435' date='Apr 4 2007, 10:58 AM']Hey God can deal with me then.[/quote]That's a cavalier attitude toward sin. Usually, Christians look to repentance as a response to their sinful actions.

[quote name='Budge' post='1229435' date='Apr 4 2007, 10:58 AM']I think Hes going to be a lot more upset with you folks messing around with grave images and going with a church that says SURE YOU CAN, when He SAY DONT DO IT.[/quote]Well, that's the tried and true attitude of "worrying about the splinter in someone else's eye", isn't it?

As you are contemplating the acceptance of your sinfulness, you might want to wrap your head around the Old Testament accounts of the Israelites being commanded to make statues, in Exodus 25, 1 Chron 28, etc ([url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp"]link[/url]). Why were the Israelites "messing around with graven images"? Why did they devote so much of value (e.g. gold, fine linens, etc) to these objects used in their worship? Were they breaking the commandments of Budgianity?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229431' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:55 AM']Yeah buried in paragrah 4 never shown on the official lists.
Just more of the BIBLE SAYS DONT, and CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS YOU CAN![/quote]
Budge, you don't like our numbering of the Ten Commandments. If we had the Protestant numbering, our commandments would read the same as yours and we would be told to make no images at all. That, however, makes no sense. As you know, God Himself tells the Israelites to make images. God only gets offended when they worship their images. That clearly means that the prohibition against graven images is not meant to stand on its own. It must be in a larger context. Since God only gets offended when people worship images, it makes perfect sense that that context is the First Commandment against worshipping false Gods. So, in that context, God is listing the kinds of false gods they can't make, and one of those is graven images. Our images, however, are not considered gods, either by us or by others.

God is not inconsistent. If He says not to do something and makes that law abide forever, He's not going to tell us later to go ahead and do it. The only way that the Torah does not contradict itself in this regard is if the Catholic numbering of the Ten Commandments is correct.

[Budge]

The snake was BROKEN into bits.

The cheribium on the ark faced inward, had no names, and no one payed them any attention.
[quote]Catholics don't believe that God lives in icons or statues any more than I believe that my parents live inside their photograph.[/quote]

So when all the statues start bleeding and crying or moving like at Knock Ireland--a papally approved one by the way...

what is INSIDE them making them do that?

[img]http://www.nbc10.com/2006/0425/8988663_240X180.jpg[/img]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230045' date='Apr 4 2007, 05:22 PM']The snake was BROKEN into bits.

The cheribium on the ark faced inward, had no names, and no one payed them any attention.
So when all the statues start bleeding and crying or moving like at Knock Ireland--a papally approved one by the way...

what is INSIDE them making them do that?

[img]http://www.nbc10.com/2006/0425/8988663_240X180.jpg[/img][/quote]
It's okay to disobey the commandment as long as your images are facing inward and unnamed, then? I don't see God making that exception in your version of the Ten Commandments. Are you adding to Scripture?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]So when all the statues start bleeding and crying or moving like at Knock Ireland--a papally approved one by the way...

what is INSIDE them making them do that?[/quote]When Jesus was crucified the earth split and the veil in the Temple was torn in two. The veil was an inanimate object. It had no soul. Yet God could still use it as a sign of His power. In the Bible there are numerous examples of God using created things to make Himself known to people. Or do you genuinely believe that the burning bush at Sinai [i]was[/i] God?

[quote]The snake was BROKEN into bits.[/quote]

Not because it was an evil graven image that people had been worshipping, but because it had served its purpose. There was no further need for it.

[quote]The cheribium on the ark faced inward, had no names, and no one payed them any attention.[/quote]

If they weren't necessary and they didn't add anything to the ark itself, why bother even to put them there in the first place? Are you suggesting that God specifically requested His followers to make pointless objects that no one was ever going to look at really?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229431' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:55 AM']Yeah buried in paragrah 4 never shown on the official lists.[/quote]

Not true, your statement is false.

[quote name='Budge' post='1229431' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:55 AM']Just more of the BIBLE SAYS DONT, and CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS YOU CAN![/quote]

Not true your statement is false.

"Graven images" which the 1st commandment speaks of are like the golden cafe, which are worshiped as a god. God forbids worshiping false gods, if it is an "image" or "spirit." But God does not forbid images to be used in worship, just forbids worshiping the images.

Example when the Israelites where still walking threw the desert they are plague with poison snakes biting them so God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a cross, and whom ever looks on that snake is not effected by the snake bites. Which is a "preview" of Christ on his cross. The bronze serpent looks like the other poison snakes, but does not kill them, Christ, on His cross looks like a criminal but is the savior.

The ark of the convent is another image, used in worship...
[img]http://www.holyangels.com/images/ARK-OF-THE-COVENANT.GIF[/img]
clearly it has to angels atop of it made of gold, which God commanded Moses to make.

Even the Bible is an image, but we don't worship the bible, the paper and ink. Its used in worship. Most in the 20th century can read, others in the past could not, many today can not read, the point is Catholic icons and statues tell a story just like the bible. As long as they are used in worship and not worshiped they are not the "Graven images" the 1st commandment forbids.

[Akalyte]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1230113' date='Apr 4 2007, 07:29 PM']Not true, your statement is false.
Not true your statement is false.

"Graven images" which the 1st commandment speaks of are like the golden cafe, which are worshiped as a god. God forbids worshiping false gods, if it is an "image" or "spirit." But God does not forbid images to be used in worship, just forbids worshiping the images.

Example when the Israelites where still walking threw the desert they are plague with poison snakes biting them so God commands Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a cross, and whom ever looks on that snake is not effected by the snake bites. Which is a "preview" of Christ on his cross. The bronze serpent looks like the other poison snakes, but does not kill them, Christ, on His cross looks like a criminal but is the savior.

The ark of the convent is another image, used in worship...
[img]http://www.holyangels.com/images/ARK-OF-THE-COVENANT.GIF[/img]
clearly it has to angels atop of it made of gold, which God commanded Moses to make.

Even the Bible is an image, but we don't worship the bible, the paper and ink. Its used in worship. Most in the 20th century can read, others in the past could not, many today can not read, the point is Catholic icons and statues tell a story just like the bible. As long as they are used in worship and not worshiped they are not the "Graven images" the 1st commandment forbids.[/quote]



That was awesome! now if she can understand. lol

[Socrates]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1230123' date='Apr 4 2007, 06:35 PM']That was awesome! now if she can understand. lol[/quote]
I've made that point at least three times in other debates - the ark, the bronze serpents, the decorations in the temple - it's just one of those things in the Bible fundies refuse to acknowledge.

And, Budge, isn't that an IMAGE of Moses on your avatar??

If Catholics use images of holy people, you rant about how idolotrous it is, yet images are okay for you?
Do I see a double standard here?

[Budge]

Nothing but excuses, to say WE CAN, when GOD SAYS THOU SHALT NOT...

[notice the faces of the decorations on the ark are covered, and they are NOT facing out? and that bronze snake you love so much...it was SMASHED INTO BITS]

God was talking about religious WORSHIP of images, but somehow that distinction escapes you.

stuff like THIS:

[img]http://www.chnonline.org/2004/2004-08-05/statue.jpg[/img]


[b]Exd 20:4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:[/b]
[quote]It's okay to disobey the commandment as long as your images are facing inward and unnamed, then? I don't see God making that exception in your version of the Ten Commandments. Are you adding to Scripture?[/quote]

The JEWS NEVER worshipped the cheribuim on the ark.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Budge