Budge, I Have A Question For You?

[Budge]

[quote][b]But God[u] does not forbid[/u] [u]images[/u] to [u]be used in worship[/u], just [u]forbids[/u] [u]worshiping [/u]the images.[/b][/quote]

Wow some of you are very good at those twisty sentences tht are self contradicting.

[img]http://www.stellamaris.net/silo/51.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.inplainsite.org/assets/images/Pope-Mary-3.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

So how do you tell the intent? If you talk at your parent's gravestone, are you actually addressing the stone? Or perhaps the lifeless corpse underneath the ground? (my dad is dead, so you ninnies save your sensitivity hoohah, I'll trade dead dad jokes with the best of you.)

I suppose only Catholics are incapable of avoiding worshipping the image itself--which is the true meaning of idolatry--the worshipping of the image, not the thing it symbolizes.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230286' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:42 PM']Wow some of you are very good at those twisty sentences tht are self contradicting.[/quote]

I'm sorry you dont understand the true word of God, Budge.

Anyone else remember when King David danced naked before the Ark of the Covenant? Budge doesn't... I can just image what she would say if a Pope did the same.

Edited April 5, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[CatholicCid]

If we are made in the image of God, and we are not to make anything in likeness to anything in Heaven or Earth, then wouldn't this count to pictures of humans since we are made in the image and likeness of God and God is in Heaven.
That would seem pretty literal to me if we held it 100%.

Edited April 5, 2007 by CatholicCid

[KnightofChrist]

Jesus Christ Himself is the image of God. The only "image" Catholics worship, no matter how hard Satan deceives people like Budge.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230277' date='Apr 4 2007, 09:36 PM']God was talking about religious WORSHIP of images, but somehow that distinction escapes you.[/quote]A distinction need to be made here. God said no GRAVEN images. He didn't say no images at all. So, budge, what to you is a "graven" image and what is a normal one? Because in your picture, I just see a normal statue. The only thing special about it is that it's made of ice(?), which is extra hard to do. An image is graven only if you make it so, and in this case, you make it so only if you start worshipping it, which we do not.

[quote]The JEWS NEVER worshipped the cheribuim on the ark.[/quote]And neither have we. We don't worship the statues of Mary. We don't worship the statues of the saints. We don't even worship the crucifix. We use them as tools to help us concentrate - just as anyone would use a picture of someone to help them concentrate on that person. We've told you this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and yet you still don't believe us.

Here, try some logic: Either we are lying about worshiping the statues or we are not. If we are not, you have nothing to worry about. If we are lying(which we are not), then one could logically conclude that we are doing so with malicious intent to drag down others to hell with us, in which case we would be evil and unsavable anyway. So, whether we are lying or not, there is absolutely no point to this line of attacks.

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1230618' date='Apr 4 2007, 11:51 PM']
If we are made in the image of God, and we are not to make anything in likeness to anything in Heaven or Earth, then wouldn't this count to pictures of humans since we are made in the image and likeness of God and God is in Heaven.
That would seem pretty literal to me if we held it 100%.[/quote]As well, if we are made in the image of God and we are to have no likenss to anything in heaven or earth, then reproduction itself is a sin, as it creates another person, who is in the likeness of God. And that's just silly.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Farsight one

[Budge]

[quote]Anyone else remember when King David danced naked before the Ark of the Covenant?[/quote]

He was dancing before God.

not before lifeless golden angels that Im sure he just thought of as decoration.

[Budge]

[quote]We don't worship the statues of Mary.[/quote]

You can keep telling me that but the ACTIONS say different, especially when same statues are perceived as having powers within them to cry, move and bleed and "special" statues like the Fatima one given world-tours.

Then add to the fact that these statues are definitely "SERVED" as outlawed by God, covered in jewels, given processions, and incense.

[img]http://www.marypages.com/BeauraingP.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.cdom.org/wtc/wtc_archives/wtc101200/wtc_pages/fatima.jpg[/img]

[Budge]

[quote]Here, try some logic: Either we are lying about worshiping the statues or we are not. If we are not, you have nothing to worry about. If we are lying(which we are not), then one could logically conclude that we are doing so with malicious intent to drag down others to hell with us, in which case we would be evil and unsavable anyway. So, whether we are lying or not, there is absolutely no point to this line of attacks.[/quote]

I dont bleieve you are puposefully lying but have been deceived with that dulia and latria nonsense meant to compliate the meaning of worship, and by the example of a church that tells you even though God DIRECTLY says something...NO GRAVEN IMAGES to be used in religious worsip...your church SAYS HEY THEY ARE OK...

[Brother Adam]

Aw Budge, not all images are graven. You know that, and we've already pointed it out. Let's face it, your lies about our faith are never going to deceive anyone except for the very weak minded (to which you will have to make an account for before Jesus at your judgment), and the efforts of Catholics here to ask you to stop lying aren't going to work either. Apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in your heart you are just going to keep repeating the same lies over and over again as you have for years now, and the good folks here will just keep correcting you to no avail over and over again.

Now we have entered the Easter Triduum when we celebrate the Passion and Resurrection of Jesus, the most solemn time of the Church year. I'd ask you (and everyone) to consider spending these three days meditating and praying on the mystery of our salvation in Jesus, but I'm sure to you, these three days remembering Jesus are just "Catholic" so you'll just find a way to "bash it".

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, you consistently claim that our actions speak louder than our words. Then you show us images of people kneeling in front of statues. I don't worship my fiancee, but I knelt before her to propose. Was I worshipping her? Clearly not...if you'd heard what I was saying to her as I knelt, and if you knew what my intention was, you wouldn't dream of accusing me of worshipping her. So why, when someone kneels in front of a statue, do you assume that they are offering adoration and intending to worship, when clearly that action does not denote worship apart from words and intentions? You can only say that our actions contradict our words if you have proof that they do. You have no reason to believe that Pope John Paul II, kneeling in front of a statue of Mary, was adoring or intending to adore. The only thing you have is him in front of a statue, making a physical gesture with a wide range of meaning.

Oh, and concerning David and the Ark:

"And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, 'How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?'" -2 Samuel 6:9

David did not say, "how shall the Lord come to me?" He said, "how shall the ark of the Lord come to me?" What did he mean by that? Did he want the ark in his house or the Lord? He wanted the ark in his house because he knew that the Lord comes with the ark. In the same way, we seek out signs of God's love in physical form, memorials and statues, because we know that through contemplating over what we see represented, we come to a deeper understanding of God.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230979' date='Apr 5 2007, 07:26 AM']He was dancing before God.

not before lifeless golden angels that Im sure he just thought of as decoration.[/quote]


Exactly Budge. Exactly. Forgive my tactics, you've played right into my hand. David danced around the ark, but truly danced "before" the Lord. David used the ark in worship, you've explained the catholic understanding perfectly. But as I pointed out if an pope had done the same and you had a picture, you'd be like King Saul’s daughter Michal. It was her resentment and jealousy which lead her to see Davids dancing as in vain. And it is your resentment and jealousy of catholics that leads you to see vain worship of statues, where there is none. Catholics simply worship as David worshiped. We do not worship lifeless statues, just as David with the ark, we believe they are "decoration." To be used in worship but not worshiped.

[Guest T-Bone]