Fornication Or Masturbation

[tate4242]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1242274' date='Apr 13 2007, 10:05 PM']I believe both fornication and masturbation to be sins of grave matter; and I am a baptized person who believes professes all the Dogmata and Doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church, and participates in the Sacraments of our Holy Mother the Church, and acknowledges the Pope and the other Lawful Pastors.

I shall wait until later to state my opinion on whether masturbation or fornication is the more grievous sin.[/quote]

Shalom:

I am a Hebraic Roots Christian who hopes to convert to Catholicism and I personally do consider that both masturbation and fornications would both be considered sins...but masturbation only harms myself whereas fornication can begin the process to cause a woman to become callous, hardened, unbelieving that anybody is willing to marry her.

I personally had confronted this question quite early in life. I read "The Missing Dimension in Sex" by Mr. Herbert Armstrong when I was about fifteen years old. I was not thrilled to find out that fornication and masturbation were sins but I never masturbated until after my first marriage (which incidentally ended in divorce). Once everything had began working I decided that it was a vastly less serious sin to masturbate and as my ex-wife and I were separated I masturbated partly to be moreso in control....less easily tempted by other lady friends.

There is a Levitical law stating that if a man has an emission of semen he should wash with water and be unclean ceremonially until evening. I believe that an emission of semen is a serious thing....those little guys can really help start a human life....for them to be spilled and die may be kind of rough for them because after reading "The Secret Life of Plants" I believe that a case can be made that consciousness has been given to vastly smaller creatures/even cells....than we possibly could have imagined.

I believe that it is vastly less harmful to masturbate and take a shower than it is to fall into temptation and disappoint one of our lady friends who believes that we are the type of guys who try our best to be faithful within marriage.

Yahushua/Jesus mentioned "judgment" even before mercy and faith...I consider it very necessary to think of the laws as a heirarchy.....

In my opinion...when Yahushua/Jesus posed the question to the Pharisees: "Is it lawful on the Sabbath day to do good or to do evil...to save life or to kill" he was partly referring to the situation faced by the Machabee Jews...who decided to kill Greco-Syrian soldiers....even on the Sabbath... who were following an anti-Christ type of person....rather than to refuse to fight and be massacred as over a thousand of their fellow Jews had been.

To my thinking...this question by Yahushua/Jesus relates to all Catholics who may be in the armed forces or be police officers. They can take their shift and defend life....even if they have to kill to do it....even on the Sabbaths!

[tate4242]

oops...sorry..I almost posted the same thing twice.....

Here is a great link to read about what the Machabees faced:

[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/45001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/45001.htm[/url]

[quote]36 But they answered them not, neither did they cast a stone at them, nor stopped up the secret places, 37 Saying: Let us all die in our innocency: and heaven and earth shall be witnesses for us, that you put us to death wrongfully. 38 So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. 39 And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. 40 And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.[/quote]

I personally believe that there is some truth to the evolutionary theory..but I believe that Intelligent Life evolved in the Super Force/Super Energetic Matter tenth or eleventh space - time dimensional continuum where electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force are all unified....This force/wave environment would always have existed and always will exist....The Creator/YHWH is foremost an inventor/scientist...and only after He Created Other Life forms did He have to get into legislation/laws and theology....If we think in terms of The Creator as a scientist first....it is much easier to grasp the concept of heirarchy of laws.....and realize that all of us exist within an epic reality film designed to test all of us to see if we have at least two or three clues to rub together before The Creator can entrust us with more and more information/knowledge....

It is intriguing to me that Sir Richard Branson and those with him seem to have a much better grasp of the gravity facing humanity through global warming...whereas many fundamentalist Christians are viewing global warming as a hoax???!!!!!

"the children of this world are wiser in their generation than the children of light"

Edited April 14, 2007 by tate4242

[FullTruth]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1242765' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:06 PM']I agree with thedude's initial post here. While it is most certainly true that both are grave sins, it seems to me that fornication is worse. Knight is correct to say that, from the standpoint of material sin, masturbation is the more disordered of the two actions. However, it seems to me that there does not need to be a one-to-one correspondence between disorder and gravity. Because we are called to love and serve one another in the spirit of Truth, and the answer to Cain's question of "Am I my brother's keeper?" is most assuredly "yes," then it follows that, on account of the fact that fornication involves not just grave sin for oneself, but also the leading of another into grave sin, it is the "worse" of the two.

Also, I would like to say that, while FullTruth is very, very wrong about the nature of sin, I do think we ought to be very careful when discussing theoretical distinctions such as this. Both are mortal sins, and too much discussion along these lines does bear with it the temptation towards legalism, which should always be rejected.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff[/quote]

Hmmm...

I'm wrong about the nature of sin? That all Sin was paid for by the Cross. Interesting. . .

The more I read from you Jeff, the more I have to disagree with you.

At least your last statement shows you know that there is a leaning towards legalism. I hate legalism, because the word killeth and the spirit maketh alive.

Both put Christ on the cross, and both are equal because they had the same cost.

Show me, other than profaning the holy spirit, any sin that is not forgivable.

Edited April 14, 2007 by FullTruth

[toledo_jesus]

I believe them to be of equal gravity.

However, this is only when they are done with complete knowledge of wrong and a willing decision to carry them out. Masturbation can be especially difficult for young men who are swimming in hormones to their eyeballs.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hirsap' post='1242620' date='Apr 13 2007, 11:49 PM']On the poll topic; I have this to say (someone else was saying something very similar to this). I believe masturbation to be more grevious than fornication, because, in addition to being an illicit use of the sexual faculty; it is also more manifestly [i]unnatural[/i]. It frustrates the natural end of the procreative act in a much more serious way than does fornication (which is nevertheless grave matter). In fornication, at least the act is naturally performed (this presumes no birth control of course; yet even if so, it would still be less unnatural than is masturbation); whereas in masturbation it is not, hence it is more disordered.

I learnt this from reading the opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas on the subject a bit back. Makes sense too.

However viewed in another way, as someone else mentioned above, fornication is more serious in how it is two individuals committing mortal sin (hence two mortal sins are being committed), not one. Not to mention scandal - in its true sense.[/quote]

This is my opinion also.

[matthew1618]

There both mortal sin and very bad. When it really comes down to it, It doesn't matter which is worst because there both mortally sinful. If you're reading this I wouldn't encourage you to commit these sins nor telling others that one of these sins are better than the other one.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHGi_1r6qZk&feature=PlayList&p=30D51C8C8AD7F53D&index=32"] : [/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I agree with Matthew. Mortal sin is mortal sin! Rather than wondering which is worse, I will solve the problem by steering clear of both those things...

[Socrates]

Masturbation is considered [i]objectively[/i] more disordered, as it is contrary to the natural order of procreation.
St. Thomas ranked it behind only bestiality and homosexuality in level of disorderdness.
However, there are other mitgating factors which come into play when judging the sinfulness of an individual act - mastubation can be a very hard habit to break.

However, both are objectively mortal sins, and should be discouraged.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1244876' date='Apr 15 2007, 06:02 PM']Masturbation is considered [i]objectively[/i] more disordered, as it is contrary to the natural order of procreation.
St. Thomas ranked it behind only bestiality and homosexuality in level of disorderdness.
However, there are other mitgating factors which come into play when judging the sinfulness of an individual act - mastubation can be a very hard habit to break.

However, both are objectively mortal sins, and should be discouraged.[/quote]

Is this in Summa or one of the Angelic Doctor's other works?

[Socrates]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1244878' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:03 PM']Is this in Summa or one of the Angelic Doctor's other works?[/quote]
Summa Theologica, I beleive. Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact book. I found it while researching for one of the debates on homosexuality.

[dairygirl4u2c]

SO some times mastubrating is worse, when the life that could come iwould not be in bad circumstances.
TO say masturbation is always worse because there's no potential for life is too simple statement to me. maybe usually or often. It'd seem fornicating when there's a possibility she might abort, or fornicating when having a kid that's in a very bad conditions is worse. I'm sure some say it's better to have kids even in sin despite the conditions, but it seems to me not having a kid and masturbating is better than that.

Edited April 16, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

there's two lines of reasoning that could be followed here:

one: because sex is by nature something very good and beautiful, the more one twists that actual good into evil the more evil it is. something like: it'd be worse to desecrate a picture of Our Lord than of any other saint because a picture of Our Lord is more good and thus it is more evil to twist that good into evil. So to actually engage in the sex act, which is an objectively higher good because it is the incarnational mirror of the trinitarian embrace, whilst twisting it outside of its conext would be worse.

two: sex between man and woman is objectively a better thing than self-centered sex. therefore, masturbation would be listed as worse than actual sex because it is, by nature, less good and less natural; it does not express the greater good of sex between a man and a woman.

I would tend towards the first one; but this lends towards two different views of good and evil. evil doesn't actually exist, it's just a privation of good. so therefore, the higher the good that is perverted, the worse it is. so sex between a man and a woman is a higher good than masturbation or homosexuality; so when sex between a man and a woman is perverted it is worse; even though in a vacuum masturbation is worse than sex between a man and a woman out of its context.

the first one treats evil as a perversion better, the second one treats evil more like a positive reality. but they are both good perspectives.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i always like your way of thinking al. you're very original. i was getting down because no one's original, but i shouldn't forget a few folks here at pm.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1244953' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:41 PM']there's two lines of reasoning that could be followed here:

one: because sex is by nature something very good and beautiful, the more one twists that actual good into evil the more evil it is. something like: it'd be worse to desecrate a picture of Our Lord than of any other saint because a picture of Our Lord is more good and thus it is more evil to twist that good into evil. So to actually engage in the sex act, which is an objectively higher good because it is the incarnational mirror of the trinitarian embrace, whilst twisting it outside of its conext would be worse.

two: sex between man and woman is objectively a better thing than self-centered sex. therefore, masturbation would be listed as worse than actual sex because it is, by nature, less good and less natural; it does not express the greater good of sex between a man and a woman.

I would tend towards the first one; but this lends towards two different views of good and evil. evil doesn't actually exist, it's just a privation of good. so therefore, the higher the good that is perverted, the worse it is. so sex between a man and a woman is a higher good than masturbation or homosexuality; so when sex between a man and a woman is perverted it is worse; even though in a vacuum masturbation is worse than sex between a man and a woman out of its context.

the first one treats evil as a perversion better, the second one treats evil more like a positive reality. but they are both good perspectives.[/quote]
in response to the first, though, masturbation and homosexual sex are, along with fornication, both considered to be perversions of marital sex. So ... wouldn't masturbation be worse because it is more of a perversion than fornication, because it divorces the sex act from more of the characteristics of marital sex than fornication does? (unless that's what you're arguing and I'm misunderstanding you, which is entirely possible)

[Aloysius]

that'd be along the lines of the second line of thinking.

the first line of thinking is that the sex between a man and a woman is something sacred, and thus perverting that itself is perverting something more sacred. masturbation isn't, in this line of thinking, a perversion of the sex of a man and a woman, it's a perversion of the sexual organ of just one of them. perversion of sexual pleasure in this perspective is different than perversion of actual sex. sexual pleasure is not as high of a good as actual sex, therefore perversion of sexual pleasure would not be as bad as perversion of sex itself.

I see what you're saying, though. It would still fit in more with my second line of thinking, saying masturbation is more perverse because it has less of the good things in it (good things being procreation, unity, et cetera); because it has less of the good things in it and is less natural, that makes it more evil. that's a fine perspective; and works more in an objective sense. but I see how you're relating that increasing splitting of goods to the ultimate good sexual pleasure is ordered towards, and thus trying to apply it in the other paradigm. the crux of the other paradigm is that sex is a higher good than sexual pleasure.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1244767' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:49 PM']This is my opinion also.[/quote]
So lets go out and Fornicate, eh Thomas?

Both are equally distasteful, evil, and both sent Jesus Christ on the Cross. All of the replies I have read in this post make me wonder. You all look towards your own flesh, is this more wrong in my flesh, or is that more wrong in my flesh, and forget to look towards the spiritual.

Why debate sin, when we know who died and rose again to allow us to experience forgiveness for all the sins in the world!

[Aloysius]

Fulltruth, you would be right if all you were saying was that this is not the most important discussion that could be had. It has no practical application and all that; except some minor implications for pastoral care by priests.

But just because something isn't of primary importance, doesn't mean it should not be inquired about and debated about. God gave us rational souls and this is an exercise of them.

We could discuss the morality of burning ants or how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle if we so wished, and no one should tell us "stop discussing that, it has no importance", it has importance to people of rational curiosity.

both are mortal sins. both aided in crucifying our Lord (one moreso than the other, to some extent even if that extent is minute) and both are evil and ought to be condemned.

what is basically taken for granted among all who are replying is that this is an unimportant matter, but understanding it can help us understand the nature of sin better and thus help to fight sin better.

when it comes to our own personal sins, we should never view those comparatively; we should view them absolutely, only subjective in relation to their circumstances.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1247665' date='Apr 17 2007, 11:38 PM']Fulltruth, you would be right if all you were saying was that this is not the most important discussion that could be had. It has no practical application and all that; except some minor implications for pastoral care by priests.

But just because something isn't of primary importance, doesn't mean it should not be inquired about and debated about. God gave us rational souls and this is an exercise of them.

We could discuss the morality of burning ants or how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle if we so wished, and no one should tell us "stop discussing that, it has no importance", it has importance to people of rational curiosity.

both are mortal sins. both aided in crucifying our Lord (one moreso than the other, to some extent even if that extent is minute) and both are evil and ought to be condemned.

what is basically taken for granted among all who are replying is that this is an unimportant matter, but understanding it can help us understand the nature of sin better and thus help to fight sin better.

when it comes to our own personal sins, we should never view those comparatively; we should view them absolutely, only subjective in relation to their circumstances.[/quote]

Now if we want to turn this post around, I would be more than happy to detail how one can fight sin ultimately and powerfully.

I think I should post this up tonight, to help people.

[Aloysius]

this thread is to talk about the difference between these two specific sins. it may be unimportant to some extent; but that doesn't mean it should be ignored or that you should sidetrack the topic at hand. if you don't have anything to contribute to this particular subject, then don't contribute.

[kateri05]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1242765' date='Apr 14 2007, 09:06 AM']I agree with thedude's initial post here. While it is most certainly true that both are grave sins, it seems to me that fornication is worse. Knight is correct to say that, from the standpoint of material sin, masturbation is the more disordered of the two actions. However, it seems to me that there does not need to be a one-to-one correspondence between disorder and gravity. Because we are called to love and serve one another in the spirit of Truth, and the answer to Cain's question of "Am I my brother's keeper?" is most assuredly "yes," then it follows that, on account of the fact that fornication involves not just grave sin for oneself, but also the leading of another into grave sin, it is the "worse" of the two.[/quote]

what about when the person who masturbates is married? although it is not causing the spouse to sin, it is indeed harming the spouse.


because masturbation is inherently selfish, because its so disordered, i'm leaning towards meaning "more" wrong, although really they both require confession and we only have to distinguish between mortal and venial, so thas usually where i stopping thinking too hard