Fornication Or Masturbation

[Slappo]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1268935' date='May 8 2007, 11:39 PM']Here is what a Christian couple told me about their wedding night. They prayed about getting rid of bad memories before they could even get themselves to do anything. Even the one who actually had "a past" was a little shaken about the other's past kissing sessions and emotional attachments.[/quote]

That almost made me cry. Not that they did this on their wedding night, that is AMAZING and I think I may do the same... I actually REALLY like that idea Paddington, thank you for posting it. It made me cry to think of all the things my future wife will be ashamed that I have done, and rightfully so. It makes so much sense though. Even to think that say my future wife has French kissed a man makes me deeply sad in my heart. Not to mention fornication or masturbation. I think when it comes to the wedding night if I discuss these things with my wife. If one has slept with another person, and if the other has masturbated, I won't feel like one saved anything for marriage that the other hasn't.

Objectively... I think I like Al's prospective. I understand St. Thomas Aquinas' and agree that masturbation is the more disordered act in its unnaturalness, but as to which is more damaging to ones own sexuality (both already cut you off from God, but as to which one has attacked your sexuality more...) I think fornication for Aloysius' reasons. It is a perversion of a greater good.

At the same time... masturbation does indirectly pervert the conjugal act, not just sexual pleasure. Then it becomes a question of whether or not indirect perversion or direct perversion holds greater weight. I'd think that a direct perversion of the conjugal act (fornication) would be a greater perversion of that act then an indirect perversion of it (masturbation).

God Love You,
Marcus

[abercius24]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1483113' date='Mar 24 2008, 02:57 PM']I agree both of these sins are really horrible. I hope everyone who is condeming them so heavily though confesses them to their priest if they commit them. Being a single 26 year old i know how tough it is and i think its the same for everyone else to. We are given these feelings and sometimes it almost seems impossible to turn them off. To the person who said they would never want to have to confess these sins to their priest it makes me assume you have never had to yet ? Godlbess you then. I know iv'e had to many times though and im guessing many are in the same situation as me. I remember back in highschool people were haveing sex in the 9th grade.

Not to keep going on and on but before comeing to this site I didnt even know what mortal sin was. So now thanks to phatmass I know everytime I commit fornication or masturbation Im commiting mortal sin and am being cut off from God. But it is my understanding that if one does not know its a mortal sin then they are not held accountable for it right ? Because Im just gonna keep it real alot of people commit both of these sins, christian or not. I know it doesnt make it right or any more acceptable but its just the truth. So is it the job of a faithfull catholic to tell all these people that they are commiting a mortal sin ? Because that is undoublty makeing their burden that much heavier if they dont realise that it is a mortal sin. Beause again, if they dont realise its a mortal sin then it isnt right ??

These are just thoughts, Im not trying to make this less serious then it is or make it sound like " o well everyone is doing it so dont stress it "[/quote]

Yes, one of the 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal is that it must be committed with the knowledge that it is wrong. The other two conditions are that it must be of a grave nature and must be committed with full consent. The Church teaches that mastrubation and fornication are sins of a grave nature.

[Totus Tuus]

If they both cut you off from the Trinitarian life in your soul I don't see how the level of "bad-ness" can matter... if you ain't got God you ain't got nothin' man.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1487225' date='Mar 28 2008, 08:59 PM']If they both cut you off from the Trinitarian life in your soul I don't see how the level of "bad-ness" can matter... if you ain't got God you ain't got nothin' man.[/quote]

There are levels of dependency on sin, too. If one becomes more trapped with one sin over another, they are less likely to respond to God's grace and repent later.

[Veritas]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1242389' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:10 AM']I'm only going with what the spirit taught me. All sins put Jesus Christ on the Cross, and he died for all sins. So each sin is equal, because Jesus died on the cross for it.

Don't focus on the letter (Law - commandments), focus on the spirit of the law. Jesus Christ died for all sins, so that should be our cry. Masturbation/Fornication - its all the same, because it all lead to the saviour's death. So why focus on the sins, when we can focus on the one who died for our sins?[/quote]

+

Fideism is a heresy. God gave you a mind with your soul and heart. Don't be afraid to use your mind -unless, perhaps you're afraid you will realize the inevitable -you're going to have to change from being a "no-religion" Christian, because, it's just not cogent. Faith and reason my boy. 1 word:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...t-ratio_en.html[/url]

Let God teach you something new about the unity within the summit of his creation -a brain belongs with, and doesn't threaten, authentic zeal.

God Bless!
V

[Veritas]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1242866' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:36 PM']Hmmm...

I'm wrong about the nature of sin? That all Sin was paid for by the Cross. Interesting. . .

The more I read from you Jeff, the more I have to disagree with you.

At least your last statement shows you know that there is a leaning towards legalism. I hate legalism, because the word killeth and the spirit maketh alive.

Both put Christ on the cross, and both are equal because they had the same cost.

Show me, other than profaning the holy spirit, any sin that is not forgivable.[/quote]

+

You have placed words in the mouth of fair poster and it is a non sequitur. That some sins are more grievous than others does not mean that all were not paid for by Christ's crucifixion. 7 words: You Need to Study Saint Thomas Aquinas. You will enjoy him, he will continue to enlighten your mind on things above and the study will increase your relationship with God, because you will understand his creation more deeply.

[prose]

Just to point out, you are debating a thread that is a year old, and FullTruth doesn't come here anymore

Edited March 31, 2008 by prose

[Justin86]

Ya know, I was going through this thread asking myself, "Who the hell is FullTruth?"

[jeffpugh]

FullTruth is "GodChaser" he doesn't come on under any of the aliases anymore.

[Deb]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1483113' date='Mar 24 2008, 02:57 PM']I agree both of these sins are really horrible. I hope everyone who is condeming them so heavily though confesses them to their priest if they commit them. Being a single 26 year old i know how tough it is and i think its the same for everyone else to. We are given these feelings and sometimes it almost seems impossible to turn them off. To the person who said they would never want to have to confess these sins to their priest it makes me assume you have never had to yet ? Godlbess you then. I know iv'e had to many times though and im guessing many are in the same situation as me. I remember back in highschool people were haveing sex in the 9th grade.

Not to keep going on and on but before comeing to this site I didnt even know what mortal sin was. So now thanks to phatmass I know everytime I commit fornication or masturbation Im commiting mortal sin and am being cut off from God. But it is my understanding that if one does not know its a mortal sin then they are not held accountable for it right ? Because Im just gonna keep it real alot of people commit both of these sins, christian or not. I know it doesnt make it right or any more acceptable but its just the truth. So is it the job of a faithfull catholic to tell all these people that they are commiting a mortal sin ? Because that is undoublty makeing their burden that much heavier if they dont realise that it is a mortal sin. Beause again, if they dont realise its a mortal sin then it isnt right ??

These are just thoughts, Im not trying to make this less serious then it is or make it sound like " o well everyone is doing it so dont stress it "[/quote]

Somehow I think it is easier for a man to confess masturbation to their Priest than it is for a woman. I would really rather not have to do that. I think I would have to go to a Priest I did not know. I had lots of sex in high school but, I wasn't going to church and thus not going to confession. Now, I figure it is just easier to stay celibate in all ways than to have to discuss any of that with my Priest. I think I would die right there before I even got the words out.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1268935' date='May 9 2007, 01:39 AM']Hey

BUT, you have to ask yourself if you would prefer your FUTURE wife to be a virgin when it comes time. Assuming that is your vocation.

Here is what a Christian couple told me about their wedding night. They prayed about getting rid of bad memories before they could even get themselves to do anything. Even the one who actually had "a past" was a little shaken about the other's past kissing sessions and emotional attachments.[/quote]


The need to get over it. God renews his mercies everyday.

[friendofJPII]

it's really hard to answer this question w/o knowing the people/person's involved.


Assmuming that the people commiting these acts are devout Catholics, then both sins are grevious, though fornication is more grevious because it involves another person, another life may be created from the action, and they risk scandalizing others.

However, if the people committing these actions have had little relgious training, then their guilt would be lessened. When I was in HS I did not know pre-maritial sex was a sin. My confirmation leader told me "he'd done it...." My gut told me it was wrong, and I was evenutally confirmed in the truth, but many of my peers were not so fortunate. I believe God will have mercy on them.

[abercius24]

[quote name='prose' post='1489701' date='Mar 31 2008, 04:46 PM']Just to point out, you are debating a thread that is a year old, and FullTruth doesn't come here anymore [/quote]

Then I think we win the debate by virtue of FullTruth's forfieture. Finally I won a debate! Yippee!

[Holly3278]

I believe both to be a sin and I am a Catholic according to the definition given. Also, as for which sin is more grievous, I voted for fornication because you are sinning but you are also causing another to sin by your actions.

[the 13th papist]

Both are grave, all sin is has a communal nature. Masturbation is more disordered by its very nature.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1505281' date='Apr 21 2008, 04:12 AM']Both are grave, all sin is has a communal nature. Masturbation is more disordered by its very nature.[/quote]


But when one masterbates, they only cause themselves to sin... a single soul in grave sin... when one commits fornication, they cause another person to sin in addition to their own sin. Two souls in grave sin instead of one.

I would have to say that fornication is the greater sin, even though both are grave.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='thedude' post='1242279' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:14 AM']I believe both to be grave matter. I consider fornication to be more grave, however, as it always directly involves another person in the sin.[/quote]
I second that.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1483260' date='Mar 24 2008, 06:13 PM']It made me cry to think of all the things my future wife will be ashamed that I have done, and rightfully so. It makes so much sense though. Even to think that say my future wife has French kissed a man makes me deeply sad in my heart. Not to mention fornication or masturbation. I think when it comes to the wedding night if I discuss these things with my wife. If one has slept with another person, and if the other has masturbated, I won't feel like one saved anything for marriage that the other hasn't.[/quote]

On your wedding night, you shouldn't be mourning over your past failures...if both of you have been to confession (which you should before receiving the Sacrament of Marriage) ALL your sins, regardless of how bad they were are forgiven. You are given new life. You shouldn't keep thinking about your past sins, nor of your future wife's sins...because God Himself has forgotten them.

To allow your past sins to do this to you would be allowing sin to triumph over your lives and your happiness. God is the ONE who triumphs after you have received absolution for all your sins. Your sins have lost! God is the winner!

To hold on to past sexual sins would drive you crazy! Remember St. Augustine? If he held on to his past, he probably would not have persevered in the Religious life! He would have probably allowed his past sins to conquer his mind, and make him feel that he wasn't worthy of anything anymore!

In keeping with the subject at hand, I feel fornication is the worst because it involves two souls mortal sinning as masturbation involves only one.

[Apotheoun]

Both are grave sins.

That said, I hold that masturbation is worse because it is an unnatural use of the generative organs, so it is both gravely sinful and unnatural; while fornication is gravely sinful, but the act in question is [i]per se[/i] natural.

[HisChildForever]

This might have been said before, but...

Just because fornication involves two people, doesn't mean it's worse than masturbation. In fornication, the pair shouldn't be seen as a pair but as [b]individuals[/b]. Just as an [b]individual[/b] masturbates. In fornication, each person willingly commits to the act. Whether or not one claims to have been "seduced" the truth is that both take responsibility for their own actions.

I think both (fornication and masturbation) are on the same page.

Edit:

[quote]when one commits fornication, they cause another person to sin in addition to their own sin.[/quote]

How does one individual cause another individual to sin? We all have free will. You can't force someone to sin. Random names here: Mike may want to "fool around" with Michelle, but Michelle, being a good Catholic, doesn't want to sin or lead Mike into sin. That's the reasoning here, right? Well, Mike can just go on out and "fool around" with Melanie. He brings himself into the sin. It's completely his decision.

Edited July 6, 2008 by HisChildForever