Why Europeans Left The Catholic Church

[Budge]

Europe needs missionaries, I know some some missionaries going over there. Its the new mission field.

Secularism has had its affect of course, but there are other reasons that Europeans have been fleeing from the Catholic church.

American Catholics do not realize too that Catholicism here is differnet somewhat more Protestantized then in Europe or the third world.


[quote]State of the Church
Catholicism's dwindling presence in Europe has less to do with people losing faith than it does with their rejection of authoritarian institutions.

By Adele M. Stan
Web Exclusive: 04.24.07

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What does it mean to be a European? Though it does not entail a common language or cuisine, these days, we're told, a growing number of young people on the continent are more likely to describe themselves as European than by any identity drawn from the language they speak, or their home country. Yet perhaps the most obvious aspect of European identity that transcends the continent's national borders stands rejected by the continent's citizens: despite the entreaties of Pope Benedict XVI, Europe, it seems, is loath to claim its Christian (largely Catholic) heritage as a common bond. Benedict argued hard for a mention, in the European Union Constitution, of Christianity as the root of European values, and lost.

In his quest to return Europe to its former status as the Christian continent, Pope Benedict XVI lays the blame for Catholicism's loss of Europe to many things: modernism, relativism, multiculturalism. [u][b]But never, it seems, has he looked in the mirror to find the true reason the church has lost its status as Europe's foremost ex-pression of faith. Europe's rejection of Catholicism has less to do with a loss of spirituality by the people of God (as the worldwide congregation of Catholics became known during Vatican II) than with a rejection of an authoritarian institution many regard as, at best, morally inept; at worst, morally bankrupt.[/b][/u]

Earlier this month in the New York Times Magazine, Russell Shorto introduced American readers to the pope's quest to restore (Catholic) Christianity as the first pillar of European identity. Benedict's effort comes as Islam claims its prize as the fastest-growing religion on the very continent that was once a wholly-owned subsidiary of Rome.

The pope, Shorto shows us, views the phenomenon of Europe's famously empty pews as the result of the modernity that flowed from the Enlightenment. As he wrote in 2005, just before his election to the papacy:

While Europe once was the Christian Continent, it was also the birthplace of that new scientific rationality which has given us both enormous possibilities and enormous menaces ... In the wake of this form of rationality, Europe had developed a culture that, in a manner hitherto unknown to mankind, excludes God from public awareness ... A culture has developed in Europe that is the most radical contradiction not only of Christianity but of all the religious and moral traditions of humanity.

Curiously, though, in the speech he delivered at his alma mater in Germany -- the speech that set aflame the Muslim world last September -- Benedict seemed to attribute the violence of religious terrorism by Muslims to what he saw as a lack of reason in Islam. Christianity was great, he explained, because of its roots in the philosophical traditions (wherein reason lies) of the ancient Greeks. What Benedict seemed to be saying was that faith divorced from reason leads inevitably to violence, and that reason absent faith leads in the same direction -- bringing with it, as well, a host of other societal ills. As stated here, I have no great argument with that sentence. But it has little to do, I think, with why Europe no longer goes to church, and why I believe the church is destined to fail in its mission to restore the Catholicism of yore. [b]The answer to the question of Catholicism's dwindling presence in Europe belongs to history far more recent that that favored for citation by this pope.[/b]

When assessing Europe's lack of Christian religiosity, much is made of modern philosophy and modern, secular democracy. [b]Almost never is the impact of the world wars on the European psyche factored in, and no one dares to examine Germany's National Socialist Party and Hitler's murderous reign in the context of once-Christian Europe. The blood-soaked fields of Europe after the First World War proved fertile ground for existentialism and its bitter cousin, nihilism. But without centuries of church-sanctioned anti-Semitism, would Europe have so easily looked away while the Nazis exterminated millions of Jews?
[b]
To Europeans, the Roman Catholic Church represents not simply a spiritual tradition or a repository of culture. It is arguably the most significant actor in European history, much of it not pretty. It wasn't until 1870, during the Prussian Wars, that the Church lost the last of its temporal power, with the seizure of the Papal States by Italy after the capture of Napoleon III. With the formation of France's Third Republic in the wake of those wars, self-declared anti-Semites, supported by the Church, agitated for a reunited, Catholic France, which had lost territory to the Germans during the war. The Dreyfus affair is often described as an ex-pression of these forces. The tensions between Germany and France eventually gave way to World War I.[/b]

During the revolution in Spain, the Church didn't exactly side with the angels, with most clergy choosing to ally themselves with the dictator Francisco Franco. In Croatia, during World War II, the Church sided with Ante Pavelic, whose murderous Ustaše committed atrocities against Serbs, Jews, and Roma. Then there's the Church's weak response to Nazism, which, I believe, is why it suffers so now.

The Roman Catholic Church simply never recovered from World War II. And then the Church blew its one big chance to make itself relevant in the modern age, when the Second Vatican Council rejected its own commission's conclusion that the church should sanction the use of birth control. The more recent scandal of sexual abuse in the Church, for which the Vatican has never taken responsibility, has only compounded its alienation from the public.[/b]

Two years ago, the Boston Globe's Charles Sennott gave us some numbers:

In Italy, where 97 percent of the population considers itself Catholic, church attendance has fallen to 30 percent, according to figures compiled by Famiglia Cristiana, a popular Catholic weekly magazine. In large cities such as Milan, the figure is no more than 15 percent, church officials say.

In France, where 76 percent of the population considers itself Catholic, only 12 percent say they go to church on Sunday, according to Georgetown University's Center for the Study of Global Christianity, and Vatican officials say the percentages attending Mass drop as low as 5 percent in cities, such as Paris.

I'm not surprised to read in Shorto's piece and elsewhere that Christianity in Europe continues to thrive in lay movements, where worship is conducted outside the official church. Given the history of bitter and bloody division that Europe has endured over the last century and a half, I think it would be more surprising to find the majority of its people embracing any organized religion, seeing how the God of priests and ministers and rabbis failed to spare so many Europeans the wrath of their neighbors. To expect them to venerate, in the preamble of a new E.U. Constitution (the document intended to herald the dawn of a new day), the Roman Catholic Church requires nothing short of hubris. And at a time when the continent could use some spiritual guidance, the Church is too often AWOL on the most difficult questions of the age, choosing instead to chase the past.

If you enjoyed this article, subscribe to The American Prospect here.[/quote]

I am very close to someone whose parents were German immgrants and children who went through WWII. Knowing the effect this had on their psyche directly as I heard the horror stories from both German parents who were children at the time {now deceased}, and have journal of one, and most of the family was killed off at that time--they only have 3 or 4 living relatives in the entire world. I agree with this author about those effects. I believe dead apostate churches not only including the Catholic Church in Europe but the dead Prot mainliners as well, have led most European people to embrace secularism and leave what they believe is Christianity altogether behind.

The Europeans got fed up for good reason with corrupt institutions that brought in manmade doctrines and set aside the gospel of grace. Some European countries even set a mandated church tax on church members, ie you have to pay this certain tax, Talk about state and church marrying, but the churches are losing members because people dont wnat to be forced to pay. This is the only reason these EMPTY European churches have even kept going is these church taxes.

They know the score, they know these churches, and I include the aposate prots again with the Catholic Church, became more sacramental filling stations propped up by the state, that had no true Christian fellowship.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, if you are going to argue against the Church because she claims to have authority or because she uses that authority to stand up for morality against the world, then I can only quote the Scriptures for you:

"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations..." -Romans 1:5

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" -Romans 6:16

"For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil." -Romans 16:19

"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith..." -Romans 16:26

"And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him." -2 Cor 7:15

"Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say." -Philemon 1:21

Budge, the apostles understood that the faithful need to be obedient to God and to them. You claim that the Church is invalid because she pushes her authority, but St. Paul did the same. You even boldfaced a passage which indicates that the Church's morality is outdated, yet you also believe that the secular world has abandoned morality. What are we to conclude other than that you agree that the Church is upholding morality against the secular tide, yet that you do not believe she has any authority to do so, which is contrary to Scripture.

As for the once strong secular involvement of the Church, that is a matter which has nothing to do with the faith and you know it. We will be the first to admit that there have been administrators who have been corrupt and power-hungry. That simply doesn't mean anything. Jesus said there would be weeds among the wheat. There are. That's it.

God bless,

Micah

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1256769' date='Apr 26 2007, 10:17 AM']Europe needs missionaries, I know some some missionaries going over there. Its the new mission field.

Secularism has had its affect of course, but there are other reasons that Europeans have been fleeing from the Catholic church.

American Catholics do not realize too that Catholicism here is differnet somewhat more Protestantized then in Europe or the third world.
I am very close to someone whose parents were German immgrants and children who went through WWII. Knowing the effect this had on their psyche directly as I heard the horror stories from both German parents who were children at the time {now deceased}, and have journal of one, and most of the family was killed off at that time--they only have 3 or 4 living relatives in the entire world. I agree with this author about those effects. I believe dead apostate churches not only including the Catholic Church in Europe but the dead Prot mainliners as well, have led most European people to embrace secularism and leave what they believe is Christianity altogether behind.

The Europeans got fed up for good reason with corrupt institutions that brought in manmade doctrines and set aside the gospel of grace. Some European countries even set a mandated church tax on church members, ie you have to pay this certain tax, Talk about state and church marrying, but the churches are losing members because people dont wnat to be forced to pay. This is the only reason these EMPTY European churches have even kept going is these church taxes.

They know the score, they know these churches, and I include the aposate prots again with the Catholic Church, became more sacramental filling stations propped up by the state, that had no true Christian fellowship.[/quote]

I lived in Ireland for four-and-a-half years, so I guess I know something about "Europeans." The reality is, "Europeans" are leaving churches of every flavor in Europe, not just the Catholic Church. Church of Ireland (Anglican Communion) churches in Ireland would have about 5 people in them of a Sunday, and it's the same way with the Church of England, Lutheran churches in Scandinavia, etc., which you refer to in your post. The problem isn't the "corrupt institutions" of the Catholic Church, or that the Catholic Church in the US is "more Protestantized" than in Europe -- it's the same problems that we're afflicted with in the US but at a more advance stage: materialism and secularism, the latter of which, again, you refer to in your post. BTW, it's because of these problems that the Evangelical / Pentecostal / Fundamentalist flavors of Christianity aren't exactly setting the world on fire in Europe, either.

[Mateo el Feo]

I don't think I'm quite ready to swallow the conclusions being made by a hardened liberal columnist. It's something akin to asking Osama bin Laden to critique the US War on Terror.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Europe needs missionaries, I know some some missionaries going over there. Its the new mission field.[/quote]

Ah, the 'new black' for the fundamentalists. As a European, I suppose I should be pleased to be one of this season's must-haves.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]
the author: Let’s take a look at Ms. Adele M. Stan and her position. She is a radical feminist and liberal. She believes in gay marriage and abortion. Thus, she has a great and deep hate for Catholics. An uncharitable hate. She never uses her position to evangelize or to search for truth. Every article she has ever written has been biased and most if not all of what she writes is based off her usual biased opinions. She hardly ever actually researches anything. Christians are called to defend life, defend the sacredness of Matrimony, and to never hate. This woman, does the exact opposite. For you to use her articles to defend what you believe is scandalous. She is anti-morality and in turn very anti-Christian.

Because of who and what this woman is I wouldn't believe a word that came from her hand. She would even attack you Budge if you told her what you believe.

Also, it is not only the Catholic Church that is losing it's usual faithful in Europe. Do some research on your own. Relying on others, especially those who have a history of relating a lack of truth and honesty to the public, is very dangerous.

God bless you!

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Winchester]

I thought Europe was a morally bankrupt place already. At least according to some on this post. Are we supposed to believe now that they are devout Christians leaving the Catholic Church out of some true Christian hunger?

I'm dizzy.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I thought Europe was a morally bankrupt place already. At least according to some on this post. Are we supposed to believe now that they are devout Christians leaving the Catholic Church out of some true Christian hunger?[/quote]

Interestingly, the number of Catholics in Britain is set to overtake the number of Anglicans within the decade, according to a study carried out by Cambridge University's Von Hugel Institute. This is in large part due to immigration from Eastern Europe. The Polish Catholics in London are a wonderful sight to see - I've walked past two London churches when the Sunday Mass was going on in Polish to find people kneeling on the pavements outside as the building was full to hold them. Hopefully their presence will ginger up the English churchgoers. It certainly seems to have worked in our parish in Cambridge - the Church of Our Lady and the English Martyrs offers six Masses on Sunday, not including Vigil, and all of them are well attended. I believe this is partly due to the influence of international students who come from countries where prayer and piety are widely accepted.

On a related note, Catholics have the best church attendance in Britain. So it's not all doom and gloom.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1256769' date='Apr 26 2007, 10:17 AM']Europe needs missionaries, I know some some missionaries going over there. Its the new mission field.

Secularism has had its affect of course, but there are other reasons that Europeans have been fleeing from the Catholic church.

American Catholics do not realize too that Catholicism here is differnet somewhat more Protestantized then in Europe or the third world.
I am very close to someone whose parents were German immgrants and children who went through WWII. Knowing the effect this had on their psyche directly as I heard the horror stories from both German parents who were children at the time {now deceased}, and have journal of one, and most of the family was killed off at that time--they only have 3 or 4 living relatives in the entire world. I agree with this author about those effects. I believe dead apostate churches not only including the Catholic Church in Europe but the dead Prot mainliners as well, have led most European people to embrace secularism and leave what they believe is Christianity altogether behind.

The Europeans got fed up for good reason with corrupt institutions that brought in manmade doctrines and set aside the gospel of grace. Some European countries even set a mandated church tax on church members, ie you have to pay this certain tax, Talk about state and church marrying, but the churches are losing members because people dont wnat to be forced to pay. This is the only reason these EMPTY European churches have even kept going is these church taxes.

They know the score, they know these churches, and I include the aposate prots again with the Catholic Church, became more sacramental filling stations propped up by the state, that had no true Christian fellowship.[/quote]
Yeah, nothing like an anti-religious liberal opinion writer's opinions to use as an authoritative source when bashing the Catholic Church! (And we all know what opinions are like . . .)

As myself and others have shown in a number of other threads, the author's insinuations that the Catholic Faith was responsible for the Nazi holocaust are nonsense. The Catholic Church and the Nazi party were hardly on friendly terms, and the Pope Pius XII did much to save Jewish lives during the war, leading to the conversion of Rome's Chief Rabbi (who took the Pope's original name as his baptismal name).

Much as anti-Catholic and anti-Christian liberals love to blame the Church for the Holocaust, the truth is that both neo-pagan Nazism and militant atheist Communism rose to power at a time of serious religious [i]decline[/i] in much of Europe, not a time of religious fervor. Of course the facts never get in the way of an ideologue with an agenda. . . .

[Budge]

Sure the lady is a liberal, I dont agree with her on everything.

But lets look at the facts, most European churches and I DID not leave out the bad Prot ones including the Lutheran churches in Germany, were married to the state.

Hitler did not protray himself as a "pagan" but as a Christian.

[quote]We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls....[b]We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian.[/b] We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich][/quote]

And considering what happened why would people who suffered the ravages of war become fed up with instituational churches that propped up state power more then standing for God. I am sure there were some small exceptions and of course individuals who did differently...but why would Europeans given their history have any reasons to trust church institutions?

They also have dealt with the corruption as revealed over the last years--some scandals were worse in Europe then here, such as the Austrian church scandal regarding that seminary.

NOw IM going to say something that may surprise you. Too many churches are married to the state and power brokers TODAY.
This by the way includes many Christian and evangelical churches. Where institutions come before people. Where the worse sins of the state are excused and even promoted. I have preached against Dominionism on my board many times.

The European people actually have reason to be fed up and sadly they lost thier faith via bad churches. The problem is that the CHURCH itself is made the center of faith instead of Jesus Christ. The institutions determine the faith life instead of the other way around.

Ones faith better be centered in Jesus Christ not a church institution, especially should war come. The Europeans lost their faith pure and simple it had become centered in these monolith formal institutions rather then in Jesus Christ Himself. Thats why they have chosen the siren call of the world.

You cant just point to the people and say its all their fault they are all materialists. Their churches failed them. Of course chuches will fail, the problem is this, at the core, they had faith in institutions ratehr then in Jesus Christ to sustain them.

My worry for Catholics is so much is centered on your church. Every Baptist and Evangelical and Pentecoastal institutional church could go bad {IN FACT MANY ARE ALONG WITH THE MAINLINERS AND REST}, and I would still have my faith. I can find acouple born again Christians out in the world and pray with them and know that Jesus Christ is with us. The true church is the ekklesia, not buildings or state run instiatutions or ones that stripmine the faithful for tax money.

The Europeans lost their faith because it was not centered in Jesus Christ.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Budge

[Sojourner]

[quote]The Europeans lost their faith because it was not centered in Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Or perhaps the widespread loss of faith is a result of the fact that so many forsook their vows and cut themselves off from the True Faith.

Had reformers stayed in the Church instead of forsaking their vows, they would have seen needed changes made, and would have maintained a higher degree of unity within the church.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote]Ones faith better be centered in Jesus Christ not a church institution, especially should war come. The Europeans lost their faith pure and simple it had become centered in these monolith formal institutions rather then in Jesus Christ Himself. Thats why they have chosen the siren call of the world.

You cant just point to the people and say its all their fault they are all materialists. Their churches failed them. Of course chuches will fail, the problem is this, at the core, they had faith in institutions ratehr then in Jesus Christ to sustain them.

My worry for Catholics is so much is centered on your church. Every Baptist and Evangelical and Pentecoastal institutional church could go bad {IN FACT MANY ARE ALONG WITH THE MAINLINERS AND REST}, and I would still have my faith. I can find acouple born again Christians out in the world and pray with them and know that Jesus Christ is with us. The true church is the ekklesia, not buildings or state run instiatutions or ones that stripmine the faithful for tax money.

The Europeans lost their faith because it was not centered in Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Yeah, I don't buy this. Europeans have not "lost" their faith. They simply turned against it.

The Catholic Church has existed for 2,007 years. There have been times where the people in the Church have been corrupt, but never the Church itself. The Church has been unchanging and perfect. The Church's main focus is Christ, for He is the Bridegroom and she is the Bride. If the faithful do not want to follow the teachings of Christ given and protected by His Bride, then that is their choice. It is by these commandments and laws, given by Christ to the Church, that a Christian is called to follow him. The Church has been doing the exact same thing it has been doing for 2,007 years: ministering to the people and teaching the truth. In our day and age many do not want to hear the truth, and so they walk away from it.

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried." - G.K. Chesterton

Christians are buying into materialism, relativism, and all the other bad "isms". The Church has always been there for it's faithful. Christ has never abandoned it. The gates of Hell will not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:19)

Your worry (characterized by true sorrow I'm sure) that the gates of Hell will prevail against the Church is a waist of anxiety for you to hold Budge. No point to put a wrinkle in the forehead when there is no need too. The Church will always stand. Scripture tells us this. Although it is sad that people have turned away from truth and Christ (by their own free-willed choice) we will still be here in the end no matter if our number is great or small. Revelations tells us how it ends: we win. Don't despair Budge! God bless!

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Budge]

[quote]
Or perhaps the widespread loss of faith is a result of the fact that so many forsook their vows and cut themselves off from the True Faith.[/quote]Or never had true faith to begin with.

The churches of the reformation made the same mistake as the Catholic Church, making thesmelves more and more the center, formalizing their instituations as indispensible instead of having the center be Jesus Christ.
[quote]
Yeah, I don't buy this. Europeans have not "lost" their faith. They simply turned against it.[/quote]

So why not explore the reasons WHY?

Lack of biblical foundation, Id put at that the top of the list.

Spritually marrooned people who were taught to put faith in buildings, sacraments--even within prot churches instead of in Jesus Christ.

When I witness to unbeleivers, I try to find out where they are at, and why they have rejected Christianity. With most I encounter even in an American context, many are fed up with the hypocrisy they see from churches, the meanness, married to the state garbage, and the churches more defenders of the power elite rather then the vulnerable of society. I hear this time and time again. Some are shocked when I agree with them. Many of the churches are bad, now let me tell you about what faith in Jesus Christ is really about, how one is saved and what the Bible really teaches....

The problem with Catholicism in a nutshell, is that your church is made the center of your faith. You dont even believe the church is the same thing that I do. You see it as your church instituation with its priests, buildings, Masses, nuns, Pope, people, I know the church is really the ekklesia...[called out one] EVERY PERSON who is truly born again--under the blood of Christ {not just Baptists} "Church" for me can be getting together with acouple Christian friends in prayer. That is the church that hell will never prevail against. It is not some wordly institution that has tied itself to the UN, or preaches themselves as the center of ones faith instead of Jesus Christ.

Think of this way, I am in my "church" on a desert island or in a land ravaged by war, whereever Im at. If I lose my Bible, I have memorized many parts of it...Gods Word is in my heart.

What is a Catholic to do if there was no more Mass, buildings, sacraments or more.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Hitler did not protray himself as a "pagan" but as a Christian.[/quote]No, he did not. Hitler's presentation of himself changed depending on the people he was talking to (at least until he got in power). If you read his speeches prior to the time when he twisted Hindenburg's arm to become Chancellor, they are all very contradictory. To the working class he promised to settle the 'Jewish menace' that was allegedly eating up all the good jobs. To the farmers in the countryside he promised to protect their rural livelihood. To the industrial businessmen he promised greater expansion opportunities in the countryside (!). Hitler was a talented speaker who could be everyone and no one. As far as religion is concerned, he definitely spoke out of both sides of his mouth.

In religious terms, he was a great admirer of Nietszche (an atheist) and his concept of the 'superman'. Hitler envisioned the blond-haired, blue-eyed Ayran as that superman. Like it or not, many aspects of Nietszche's philosophy do smack of what is known today as neopaganism.

Hitler paid lip service to Christianity in [i]Mein Kampf[/i], but his real interest in the religion (and particularly the Catholic Church) was because of its longevity. As somebody who wanted to create and sustain an ideology that would last for a poetic 'thousand years', he was curious about the qualities that had kept the Church going for so long. But his interest was not spiritual. Far from it.

[quote]The European people actually have reason to be fed up and sadly they lost thier faith via bad churches.[/quote]

No. They lost faith because of the following things:

1.) Two extremely bloody and vicious world wars. Remember that Europe sustained much heavier losses in both wars than America did, as Europe was the actual battlefield. Furthermore, there was heavy fighting in Europe from 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. The Europeans had nine years of war to cope with, plus several years of severe economic shortages afterwards and a big problem with homelessness. That could be a blow to anybody's faith.

2.) The so-called 'sexual revolution' that came with the widespread introduction of birth control in the late 50's and early 60's. (Catholics have opposed it from AD 33 to the present; most Protestant churches caved in during the 1930's.) Disbelief the sanctity of marriage and the reckless pursuit of pleasure at any cost devalued family life, and without a stable family there is no stable faith.

3.) Anxious greed and materialism that was again arguably spawned by years of shortages.

[quote]The Europeans lost their faith because it was not centered in Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Firstly, you are talking about an entire demographic of people here. From what I've read, Europe as a whole is no more secular than America, although as I've never been to America I obviously can't say for sure. If your missionary friends have been pigeon-holing Europeans in a similar way, they are in for a rude shock when they get here.

Secondly, I could introduce you to three former evangelical Christians who attended what you would call 'Bible churches' and are now militant atheists, for many and various reasons. No doubt you would have your excuses. They weren't [i]really[/i] saved, they didn't cry enough at the altar call, their testimonies weren't impassioned enough, their churches weren't [i]real[/i] 'Bible churches', one of the pastors was a weak preacher, they're just 'backslidden' and will return. As so-called 'Bible Christianity' is a vague and nebulous affair with [b]you[/b] setting its parameters (which seem to shift every day, depending on the point that you want to make) you can fabricate any excuse you like and make it stand up.

But it won't work here.

[Budge]

[quote]
Or perhaps the widespread loss of faith is a result of the fact that so many forsook their vows and cut themselves off from the True Faith.[/quote]Or never had true faith to begin with.

The churches of the reformation made the same mistake as the Catholic Church, making thesmelves more and more the center, formalizing their instituations as indispensible instead of having the center be Jesus Christ.
[quote]
Yeah, I don't buy this. Europeans have not "lost" their faith. They simply turned against it.[/quote]

So why not explore the reasons WHY?

Lack of biblical foundation, Id put at that the top of the list.

Spritually marrooned people who were taught to put faith in buildings, sacraments--even within prot churches instead of in Jesus Christ.

When I witness to unbeleivers, I try to find out where they are at, and why they have rejected Christianity. With most I encounter even in an American context, many are fed up with the hypocrisy they see from churches, the meanness, married to the state garbage, and the churches more defenders of the power elite rather then the vulnerable of society. I hear this time and time again. Some are shocked when I agree with them. Many of the churches are bad, now let me tell you about what faith in Jesus Christ is really about, how one is saved and what the Bible really teaches....

The problem with Catholicism in a nutshell, is that your church is made the center of your faith. You dont even believe the church is the same thing that I do. You see it as your church instituation with its priests, buildings, Masses, nuns, Pope, people, I know the church is really the ekklesia...[called out one] EVERY PERSON who is truly born again--under the blood of Christ {not just Baptists} "Church" for me can be getting together with acouple Christian friends in prayer. That is the church that hell will never prevail against. It is not some wordly institution that has tied itself to the UN, or preaches themselves as the center of ones faith instead of Jesus Christ.

Think of this way, I am in my "church" on a desert island or in a land ravaged by war, whereever Im at. If I lose my Bible, I have memorized many parts of it...Gods Word is in my heart.

What is a Catholic to do if there was no more Mass, buildings, sacraments or more, no priest to hear confession?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]You dont even believe the church is the same thing that I do. [/quote]I know, and I thank God for that.

[quote]You see it as your church instituation with its priests, buildings, Masses, nuns, Pope, people, I know the church is really the ekklesia...[called out one] EVERY PERSON who is truly born again--under the blood of Christ {not just Baptists} "Church" for me can be getting together with acouple Christian friends in prayer[/quote]

No one on Phatmass has ever said that we see the Church in this way. This is simply what you have [i]decided[/i] that we see her as. As you consider yourself able to rewrite the definition of [i]ekklesia[/i] (in clear contradiction to Scripture - and that reminds me, you never did get back to Raphael in that debate about the nature of the Church...) it's no surprise to me that you think you're able to define Catholicism, label it, and say to a website full of faithful Catholics, "This is what you believe in."

Again, it won't work here.

[quote]What is a Catholic to do if there was no more Mass, buildings, sacraments or more.[/quote]

I lived in a country where there is no Mass, no buildings, no sacraments for most of my life. I often went six months at a time without attending Mass. Sometimes I didn't even have access to a Bible. And you know what? My faith was strong and constant throughout. Catholics believe (and we have repeatedly told you) that God is not bound by the sacraments. His merciful love is not restricted by anything. He has chosen to give us Himself through the sacraments, it is true, but this does not mean that he can't come to us in any other way.

[Budge]

A lot of this has to do with the above I mention and [b]also the church tax, church and state married together to demand a certain percentage of people. [/b]So wonder there is resentment and departure.



[url="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-churches22apr22,0,3267911.story"]http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,3267911.story[/url]
[quote]Bell tolls for Germany's churches
As Catholic and Protestant congregations decline, many houses of worship are being shut or converted to other uses.
By Jeffrey Fleishman, Times Staff Writer
April 22, 2007

BRIEST, GERMANY — The tombstones in the graveyard are polished, but the village church, which counted only three Sunday regulars, was cracked and water-stained when it was sold for $10,000 to an aspiring filmmaker, who hung a poster of musician Lou Reed beyond the vestibule.

The altar was stripped. Icons and pews were carted off with the steeple bell. It's hard to be precise about when things started going bad, but the church's slide began after old pastor Giebler died during the German reunification and a once secure village frayed in the whirl of newfound freedom.

"When the political change happened, there was a huge atomization," said the new owner, Juliane Beer, who as a child attended services here with her grandmother. "This village had a grocery, a post office, buses going by, but now it's all gone, kaput. A church has been on this site since the 13th century. The only thing left are memories. Six years ago, a friend of my grandmother's died in this church during Christmas Mass."

Beer looked around. Her bed is in the choir loft and there's an espresso machine where the hymnals used to be; the arched windows are clear but they rattle; cobwebs shimmy on fading whitewashed walls.

"Jesus is gone," she said. "I'd like to turn it into a studio for artists."

The village church is struggling for relevance in modern Europe. The continent is rooted in Christianity, but devotion is ebbing and church attendance has dropped steadily for years. In Germany and other nations, Protestant and Roman Catholic churches are selling properties or leasing them to other religious groups, especially in cities and villages where structures are left vacant as shrinking congregations merge.



Secular conversions

Churches have been reinvented as restaurants, coffee houses, clubs, apartments and music halls. Some have kept their frescoes and stained glass; others have been de-sanctified, yet their unmistakable facades and architecture leave an imprint of the holy on even the most capitalist of endeavors.

The churches of Europe have endured wars, plagues and much else, and although the current crisis is likely to pass, the image of the church is being significantly altered.

South of Briest, past asparagus fields and cattle, Christiane Beutel, the pastor of the Lutheran Church in the fishing village of Plaue, opened a church ledger from 1650. Written with ink and quill and held together by tape, the pages note the baptisms and deaths and the works of those whose bones have since turned to dust in the cemetery outside.

"There's a trend in Germany and people are saying they don't want to devote themselves to anything fixed, whether it be a church or a political party," Beutel said. "They just want to live their lives and have fun. I think this comes from a collective disappointment that things didn't turn out like people thought and illusions were shattered after communism fell."

Tight church budgets mean Beutel's duties are many and scattered. She and two other ministers serve five churches in the region. Her congregations in Plaue, southwest of Brandenburg city, and nearby Woltersdorf has shrunk to 600 from 800 in the last decade. This mirrored a pattern of decline in population and prosperity: Thousands of steel industry jobs were lost, Plaue closed its last school two years ago, and the town's once strong band of 30 fishing families has dwindled to four.

A recent study by Dresdner Bank predicted that in the coming years, 50% of Germany's churches may close or be turned into other uses. The nation's Roman Catholic Church is expected to stop services in 700 of its 24,500 churches by 2015. Some of them, such as St. Laurentius in Berlin, are being rented to immigrant religious denominations. The Lutheran Church has sold a number of its churches to such groups, including a Serbian Orthodox community.



Declining population

Congregations slip away with each church funeral. Germany, a nation of 82 million people, has a low fertility rate that is unable to balance its rapidly aging population; government estimates suggest the working-age population will shrink by 21 million over the next two decades.

Other pressures on churches include secularization, villages emptying as people move to find work and a state religion tax collected from all church members, which keeps thousands from joining.

Meeting this year in Wittenberg, the home of the Reformation, an organization of mainline Protestant churches predicted that by 2030 membership would drop to 17 million from 25.6 million, and that annual income from the church tax, which helps support institutions, would be halved from about $5.4 billion to $2.7 billion.

"I think it's time for more lay people to become involved and for church communities to learn they don't need a priest to come every weekend," said Beutel, whose Lutheran Church has cut its clergy in Germany by about one-third since 1990. "The church should live on in small families and groups. We know this is possible because of the Christian and Jewish diasporas over the centuries. People need to take more responsibility for their faith."
[b]Klaus Tanner, a professor of theology at Martin Luther University in Wittenberg, said many Christians were keeping their faith but were retracting from religious institutions[/b]. This dynamic is forcing Protestant churches to reorganize, trim budgets and contemplate diversifying programs with more missionary fervor.

"There's tremendous pressure on the church," he said. "There's more competition, of course, and some churches will survive and some will not."[/quote]

[quote]In overwhelmingly Roman Catholic Austria, people are automatically registered as church members when they are baptized as infants. To get their names off the rolls, they must formally apply to the government and pay any state church taxes they may owe.

Before the sex scandals hit, unhappiness with the church tax - which averages about $350 a year - was a key reason why people left.[/quote]

[url="http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=305&id=1122942004"]LINK[/url]



AUTOMATICALLY enrolled in the Catholic Church, with a LIFETIME tax of $350 a year, unless you FORMALLY resign.

and SADLY the PROT churches too there followed that plan.

So, in Austria, the Catholic Church as well as other Prot churches are by extension, a State Religions. I knew they did the same thing in Germany too.

Pretty convienient income stream for them...


That is one of the main things that has killed churches in Europe as well.

[Aloysius]

Never thought I'd see the day when the Uncompromising Budge, who refuses to support anything good done by the UN because of the principal that one should not yoke themselves with evil doers, would yoke herself to MODERNIST SENSIBILITIES. anyway, it's understandable: fundamentalism is a modernist individualist error.

what you fail to take into account is the long cultural history of Europe; Europe always understood herself as a society; and as a society she had a religion. There is no such thing as individual religion; at least there shouldn't be. It has been this way from the beginning, when the Apostles baptized hundreds at a time (they had not all gone through lengthy individual questioning processes, they all jumped on a bandwagon because of the fervor created by the Apostolic Missionaries), they baptized whole communities, and among those communities Christianity became expected of all its members.

And so we have the ghost of a Christian Civilization still expecting the members of its community to practice Christianity; to give money so that the Church can function and do good for the poor and provide all the religious services and missionary work and buildings which inspire prayer giving life to the Church.

But you have these American sensibilities; utterly foreign to the mindset of the Apostles, utterly foreign to the mindset of Christians for centuries. And while they fit in well with the sentiments these modernist-secularists (even if they claim to have belief in Christ, they are for all other purposes, especially regarding moral opinions, secularists) they do not fit in with the mindset of Christian civilization. The Catholic Church, and the fragments of the Protestant Churches, still operate as if Europe was Christian. Modernism has torn it apart, and made it not Christian; and so these new individualists; these new post-modern secular moralists, view the Church's connection with society as being oppressive to their license to do as they wish and not be expected to be Christians.

fine, go ahead, support the idea that people should not be expected to be Christians. You are yoking yourself with Satan's master plan to divide and conquer.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257784' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:30 AM']But lets look at the facts, most European churches and I DID not leave out the bad Prot ones including the Lutheran churches in Germany, were married to the state.[/quote]

As I noted, NO churches in "Old Europe," i.e. northwestern Europe, are doing well, including the "good" - Evangelical / Pentecostal / Fundamentalist - Protestant churches. Of course, in countries in "New Europe," i.e. former Soviet bloc countries such as Poland, the Catholic Church rocks on.


[quote name='Budge' post='1257784' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:30 AM']Hitler did not protray himself as a "pagan" but as a Christian.[/quote]

This is simply untrue. Any true Christians who got in his was were destroyed. St. Maximillian Kolbe, anyone?

[Starets]

The center, source, foundation, and summit of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ. Always has been. Always will be. Cities on hills aren't invisible