Why Europeans Left The Catholic Church

[Budge]

[quote]Never thought I'd see the day when the Uncompromising Budge, who refuses to support anything good done by the UN because of the principal that one should not yoke themselves with evil doers, would yoke herself to MODERNIST SENSIBILITIES. anyway, it's understandable: fundamentalism is a modernist individualist error.[/quote]Modernist?

I doubt it.

Modernism is what fuels the interfaith movement.

If you knew the history of the fundamentalist movement in America, you would know its main premise was coming out against modernism within the Prot church. Fundamentalists opposed to neo-evangelcials who downplayed the importance of scripture.


[quote]
what you fail to take into account is the long cultural history of Europe; Europe always understood herself as a society; and as a society she had a religion.[/quote]

Yes, there is another problem in a nutshell.

CHURCHES MARRIED TO THE WORLD {state} are DEAD AND LUKEWARM by default.

[b]Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:[/b]

No Holy Spirit in dead lukewarm churches.
[quote]

There is no such thing as individual religion; at least there shouldn't be.[/quote]Is the Pope going to be standing by you, when you are up in heaven? Your Mom, Dad, priest, cousin uncle going to get you in?
"Ye must be born again", doesnt mean you will be born again because the group was.


[quote]they do not fit in with the mindset of Christian civilization.[/quote]

Again what did Jesus preach about the world.
[b]
My kingdom is not of this world[/b]


Christian "faith" based in societal conformity where there is no inner change of heart, is no faith at all.

Christian civilization, not here on this earth if you read the bible..thats more Dominionist nonsense from the Catholic side of things.

"culture" is sinking sand as well.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257836' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:27 AM']No Holy Spirit in dead lukewarm churches.
Is the Pope going to be standing by you, when you are up in heaven? Your Mom, Dad, priest, cousin uncle going to get you in?
"Ye must be born again", doesnt mean you will be born again because the group was.[/quote]

Church is a community, a family, here on Earth, and as it will be in Heaven. There is no such thing as a "Church of One," your good self notwithstanding. Church is also a "body." Kinda hard to be a body with only one member.

BTW, how do you explain the lack of traction of the "good" Protestant churches in Europe?

[Budge]

[quote]Church is a community, a family, here on Earth, and as it will be in Heaven. There is no such thing as a "Church of One," your good self notwithstanding. Church is also a "body." Kinda hard to be a body with only one member.[/quote]I am not in a church of one. In fact I may be attending a church of 900 soon.

I had a beloved church family of 100 members for several years in my former community, I am going to visit them soon as well.

Every truly born again Christian is a member of the church {assembly} that I am in, that is the true Body of Christ.

Not the Vatican, not your buildings, not lousy state Prot churches that have forsaken Gods Word.

[quote]

BTW, how do you explain the lack of traction of the "good" Protestant churches in Europe?[/quote]

Actually I believe there are some good ones, there have been missions there.

A lot of the lack of traction has been from the state churches themselves that have stood against anyone else possibly getting a cut of the action. Ie you think the monoliths would have been friendly to newcomers when they got a set 3% tax they are getting collected from the government?

My old church had missionaries that were setting to go to Europe including France.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257852' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:52 AM']I am not in a church of one. In fact I may be attending a church of 900 soon.

I had a beloved church family of 100 members for several years in my former community, I am going to visit them soon as well.

Every truly born again Christian is a member of the church {assembly} that I am in, that is the true Body of Christ.[/quote]

But you've denounced others, including a pastor of an independent Baptist who preached "false doctrine" from the pulpit, as well, of course, as Catholics, based on YOUR interpretation of sacred scripture. My question, which you have yet to answer, is what makes YOUR interpretation better than David Koresh's? The logical end of your approach to faith, i.e. sola scriptura, must necessarily be a "Church of One."

[quote name='Budge' post='1257852' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:52 AM']Not the Vatican, not your buildings, not lousy state Prot churches that have forsaken Gods Word.[/quote]

The Catholic Church does not teach this, and you are either mistaken or deliberately misrepresenting that teaching. I'll be charitable and assume the former.

[quote name='Budge' post='1257852' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:52 AM']Actually I believe there are some good ones, there have been missions there.

A lot of the lack of traction has been from the state churches themselves that have stood against anyone else possibly getting a cut of the action. Ie you think the monoliths would have been friendly to newcomers when they got a set 3% tax they are getting collected from the government?

My old church had missionaries that were setting to go to Europe including France.[/quote]

What does the fact that there are some state-funded churches in Europe have to do with the fact that Evangelical / Pentecostal / Fundamentalist churches haven't experienced significant growth? Going back to my original response, they're dealing with the same problems as the "traditional" churches, to wit, secularism and materialism.

[Budge]

[quote]But you've denounced others, including a pastor of an independent Baptist who preached "false doctrine" from the pulpit, as well, of course, as Catholics, based on YOUR interpretation of sacred scripture. My question, which you have yet to answer, is what makes YOUR interpretation better than David Koresh's? The logical end of your approach to faith, i.e. sola scriptura, must necessarily be a "Church of One."[/quote]

So you dont think Christians should use any discernment.

That I should follow any preacher that calls himself a Christian, even some guy preaching direct heresies?

That I should follow even a Baptist preacher that prays to Buddha or something?

Christians use discernment they are not at the beck and call of false authorities.

Even the apostles taught "we should obey God rather then men"

David Koresh did not adhere to scripture but added to it, and made himself out to be a god....if his followers had any discernment they would have known he was a false preacher from the get-go.



T

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257784' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:30 AM']Hitler did not protray himself as a "pagan" but as a Christian.[/quote]
Hitler was a politician and said all kinds of things to get popular support. In private, he has been recorded as speaking strongly against Christianity and the Church many times.

And Hitler was not a practicing Catholic/Christian. He fell away from the Faith in his youth, and was not a church-goer.
Blaming Nazism on Catholic sacramental life is absurd when neither Hitler himself nor the other chief Nazis were receiving the sacraments.

[Budge]

Sure there are many Luciferians who pretend to be Christians.

Be sure youre not being fooled by any now.

[Tufsoles]

Europeans have been leaveing the church for years and it comes down to humanist secularism, which is very appealing over there. I am not saying that all europeans are like that and I am not saying that all europeans are Humanist seculars who have left the church but this is one of the many causes that has caused this to occur. there are many other reason such as realism, satanism, and liberalism. There are more reasons but this just the tip of the iceberg.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1258473' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:01 PM']So you dont think Christians should use any discernment.

That I should follow any preacher that calls himself a Christian, even some guy preaching direct heresies?

That I should follow even a Baptist preacher that prays to Buddha or something?

Christians use discernment they are not at the beck and call of false authorities.

Even the apostles taught "we should obey God rather then men"

David Koresh did not adhere to scripture but added to it, and made himself out to be a god....if his followers had any discernment they would have known he was a false preacher from the get-go.
T[/quote]

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that we need an authoritative teaching institution as established by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit, and that can interpret and expound on scripture within its cultural, historial, literary, and linguistic context. "Discernment" has led only to heresies and schisms.

As for David Koresh, YOU say he did not adhere to scripture, but without an authoritative teaching institution to make that call, we literally have a "he said, she said" situation, in which what you say is, with respect, no better than your opinion.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1259284' date='Apr 28 2007, 09:09 PM']Sure there are many Luciferians who pretend to be Christians.

Be sure youre not being fooled by any now.[/quote]
You certainly say that you're Christian. Does that mean that you're probably really a "Luciferian"?

The implication of your argument is silly.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1260893' date='Apr 30 2007, 03:04 PM']You certainly say that you're Christian. Does that mean that you're probably really a "Luciferian"?[/quote]

This would certainly explain Budge's seemingly irrational hatred towards us.

[Paddington]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1260545' date='Apr 30 2007, 11:58 AM']As for David Koresh, YOU say he did not adhere to scripture, but without an authoritative teaching institution to make that call, we literally have a "he said, she said" situation, in which what you say is, with respect, no better than your opinion.[/quote]

Suuuuuch a bad example.

[Ellenita]

I bet the popular press were spinning the demise of the Catholic church in the 1600s in England too.....

[Budge]

I dont hate anyone.

That is silly.

Anyhow do you all beleive that experts should make all your decisions for you? or that you can be led by the Holy Spirit on your own ever?

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Budge' post='1263628' date='May 3 2007, 11:05 PM']I dont hate anyone.

That is silly.

Anyhow do you all beleive that experts should make all your decisions for you? or that you can be led by the Holy Spirit on your own ever?[/quote]


I've been led by the Holy Spirit many times, still do. It just so happens the same Holy Spirit that is speaking to me, is also speaking through the Catholic Church. So therefore, we're in agreement. Ta-da!!!

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1263628' date='May 3 2007, 09:05 PM']I dont hate anyone.

That is silly.

Anyhow do you all beleive that experts should make all your decisions for you? or that you can be led by the Holy Spirit on your own ever?[/quote]

Since there are multiple Protestant denominations, we must assume one of the following two things:

1. The Holy Spirit is sending out conflicting, confusing messages about the truth.
2. The Holy Spirit only sends out one message of truth, and the Protestant denominations have got it wrong.

And let's not delude ourselves about "experts." Which "experts" do you listen to: Dr. James Dobson? Billy Graham? Ralph Reed? Ted Haggard?

[Aloysius]

no, budge is a theological anarchist and doesn't listen to any experts.

there is a divine and infallible framework of Revelation God has sent us through the ages; complete in His Sacred Scripture, complete in the Revelation of Jesus Christ; and the Spirit of Truth guides His Apostles and all their successors such that we can be assured completely of a trustworthy framework of truth; and need not go around searching in the dark for what this or that scripture "actually means"; because to really know what it actually means, you need to be an expert in Ancient Semitic Culture and the Hebrew and Greek languages as well as all the idioms of Greek and Hebrew and how Hebrew idioms translate into Greek and the entire history of every decision about translating this or that word... et cetera... otherwise you cannot be sure you have encountered what the Original Author intended to say; and even with all that knowledge, you still might not get it. But we can trust the Living Tradition, guided by the Holy Ghost into all Truth. Our God is so personal and loving that He made it so that we had somewhere to go to trust that the Truth had been passed down through all the ages.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Budge' post='1263628' date='May 3 2007, 11:05 PM']Anyhow do you all beleive that experts should make all your decisions for you? or that you can be led by the Holy Spirit on your own ever?[/quote]

Of course the Spirit can speak to someone individually, but the Spirit never contradicts Scripture or Tradition.

After hearing on a recent Daily Breakfast podcast about priests who didn't even know how to give the sacrament of Reconciliation, I think it's painfully obvious why Catholicism is dying in Europe.

[Budge]

[quote]no, budge is a theological anarchist and doesn't listen to any experts.[/quote]

Define "expert"

Name one "expert" that is NOT Catholic....{dare ya}

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264649' date='May 4 2007, 08:09 PM']Define "expert"

Name one "expert" that is NOT Catholic....{dare ya}[/quote]
The Holy Spirit...He was never baptized, so He's not Catholic, and He's the expert the entire Church follows. :

Budge, all human experts in the ways of God either eventually become Catholic or die on the way to becoming Catholic.