Errors Of The Pope

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1284265' date='May 30 2007, 11:55 AM']the evidence i've seen shows overwhelmingly that it was in his catechism, but i've also seen it wasn't while he was pope or definitive.[/quote]Hi Dairy,

It appears that the statement may have been added by a translator (at least that's what the anti-Catholic website seems to suggest). We've all tried our hardest to find the quote in the 1905 Catechism, but haven't been able to. I think that any statements beyond this would amount to pure speculation.

A couple more points:

1) Reza cited three sources: a Catholic website, an anti-Catholic website, and a secular website (NY Times). In all cases without exception, they agreed that Limbo was never held as a defined doctine/dogma in the Catholic Church.

2) As St. Augustine wrote, "In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity." For a pope to be in "Error" (as the title of the thread states), there has to be a defined Truth to contradict. According to St. Augustine (and basic logic), popes (along with any theologian) are free to hold differing views on non-essentials.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1284280' date='May 30 2007, 09:19 AM']You misunderstand. Perhaps it's because English is not your first language? I've never written or even implied that the Orthodox Churches put emphasis on race.[/quote] Yes you did, in our first discussions about orthodoxy.

[quote]There is no such thing as "race." There's only one "race" -- the human race. There are, however, national identities and ethnic groups. You can't deny that Orthodox Churches are identified as national and ethnic entities (Greek, Russian, Ukrainian, etc.) But this is not related to this thread.[/quote]If you were to read my initial response to you regarding this, the church doctrines have nothing to do with national, ratial or enthic entities, etc. Even Roman Catholicism has this, Melkite, Coptic Catholic, etc. As I pointed out before being of a particular race, culture, etc. doesn't help you in the spiritual realm. Even the Roman Catholic Church put's emphisis upon the culture that it was created upon. The Apostle St. Mark founded the Coptic Church in Egypt, why would he abolish that culture, and force it to conform to another culture? He wouldn't is the proper answer, and that's why he took everything in their culture and transformed it to fit in wit God's truth.

[quote]Anyway, my comment was about the attitude of Orthodox Church members, not Orthodox doctrine. Again, perhaps you misunderstand because of the English.[/quote] No your initial comments were in a thread about why you aren't orthodox and you used it as if it was something that the Orthodox have in their doctrines, etc.

[quote]In case you hadn't noticed, you've lost this debate.[/quote]

I'm sorry my friend, but you have, as your own church has ethnic entities, and you mentioned it as if it was a factor to why orthodoxy was false.

Peace be with

[dairygirl4u2c]

It looks like you and likos are quibbling over minor points. Here is the main point that you should address.
It'd also be nice if you'd point out some other errors/contradictions. No, I am not going to let up on this. I know you're busy, but I will always remind you that the challenge still stands.

[quote]It appears that the statement may have been added by a translator (at least that's what the anti-Catholic website seems to suggest). We've all tried our hardest to find the quote in the 1905 Catechism, but haven't been able to. I think that any statements beyond this would amount to pure speculation.

A couple more points:

1) Reza cited three sources: a Catholic website, an anti-Catholic website, and a secular website (NY Times). In all cases without exception, they agreed that Limbo was never held as a defined doctine/dogma in the Catholic Church.

2) As St. Augustine wrote, "In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity." For a pope to be in "Error" (as the title of the thread states), there has to be a defined Truth to contradict. According to St. Augustine (and basic logic), popes (along with any theologian) are free to hold differing views on non-essentials.[/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

Just in case I need another nail for this coffin, here are the actual quotes from each of the three websites, lest someone suggest that one of these sources believed in a "Catholic doctrine of limbo":

From "Is Limbo In Limbo?" by Dominic Farrel, LC:[quote]In fact, the Magisterium has [b]never doctrinally defined limbo[/b], even though some official papal documents mention it.[/quote]

Quoting from the anti-Catholic website romancatholicism.org (on the extended article on Limbo):[quote]Rome always made clear that [b]Limbo is not binding in any form [/b]and that we may keep to the tradition of the Fathers that unbaptized infants suffer fire.[/quote]
From the New York Times article By Ian Fisher:[quote]Though limbo had no firm scriptural basis, and so was [b]never official church doctrine[/b], it remained a major part of church tradition - as well as one defining image of Catholicism - as either a neat theological compromise or as a bit mean, depending on whom one asked.[/quote]

Everybody agrees...

[RezaMikhaeil]

As I'd said before, I never said that these sources agreed with me on anything, except the particular quote that I provided about a past Roman Catholic Pope.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1285032' date='May 31 2007, 04:38 AM']As I'd said before, I never said that these sources agreed with me on anything, except the particular quote that I provided about a past Roman Catholic Pope.[/quote]We've already seen that they even disagree with you on this point.

But, let's pretend the quote actually does exist in the Catechism. Now, respond to Dairy's most recent post.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1285154' date='May 31 2007, 10:16 AM']We've already seen that they even disagree with you on this point.

But, let's pretend the quote actually does exist in the Catechism. Now, respond to Dairy's most recent post.[/quote]

Well I really don't care what St. Augustine has to say to be honest, he's not admired in the east for many of his doctrinal stances.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1285277' date='May 31 2007, 07:12 PM']Well I really don't care what St. Augustine has to say to be honest, he's not admired in the east for many of his doctrinal stances.[/quote]Again with the [i]ad hominems[/i]. The fact that St. Augustine wrote it is incidental. His saying is a truism.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1285381' date='May 31 2007, 07:07 PM']Again with the [i]ad hominems[/i]. The fact that St. Augustine wrote it is incidental. His saying is a truism.[/quote]

No it's a fact that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox don't respect his views, simple and plain.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1285414' date='May 31 2007, 10:42 PM']No it's a fact that the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox don't respect his views, simple and plain.[/quote]Poor Reza...