Your Thoughts On Praying The Rosary, To Mary, And Other Saints

[GodChaser]

Lets talk about praying to the Saints and Mary!

First, I want to re-introduce a definition to describe what I am talking about -

Blasphemy

impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things

Judaism.

an act of cursing or reviling God.

pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.

Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

[quote name='Exodus 20:1-7']And God spoke all these words, saying: I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.[/quote]

I am going to preach a little bit here, on these each of these verses.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me! When I first came into the simplicity of following Jesus Christ, I heard this said. If you sacrifice time with God to spend time with a girl, your girlfriend is a god before Jesus Christ. If you don't want to give thithes and offerings to God, than money is a god before Jesus Christ. If you're more willing to spend time gardening than in prayer, than gardening is god befre Jesus Christ!

And looking at the definition above, asking a saint or mary to pray for you is putting prayer time that should go to God to someone other than God. You put them before God! Well that's one commandment broken by well meaning Catholics who love God.

[b]Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.[/b]

Hmm, Rosaries, pictures of the saints, pictures of Jesus - ect, ect, ect. I'm not saying you can't have pictures of people, and enjoy them, but when a Catholic prays the rosary, are they trusting in a inanimate object or the Living God? When they are praying to a saint in heaven by reading their canonized card, are they giving glory to a card, or our father who is in heaven? When they read a card with a picture of Jesus Christ, are they repeating vain repetitions, or are they giving glory to the only blessed poentate, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, our Lord, Saviour, and God Jesus Christ!

This is boardering on Idolotry!

When you give power to Rosaries, and Cards, you are giving power to something that Only God should get. I don't know how many times my mother, a devout catholic, will tell me that pray to a saint will have a miracle because she saw a rose in a newspaper!

This is ridiculous, and it is Blasphemy! Jesus Christ doesn't need anybody to come to him and say, God Chaser, your son, said I should tell you that he needs this and that. I pray to my father in heaven in the name of Jesus Christ, and I know he hears my requests and will perform his will in my life!

Now, Catholics will say that this is exactly what the Apostles preached. But if they did, where is it in the Scripture?

They will say that Mary should be glorified, and I disagree. I think Mary was blessed, and I thank God there was a girl who was willing to carry my lord and saviour, Jesus Christ! But saying she's the lover of the Holy Ghost is going to far. Saying she is praying for sinners is wrong too, because only Christ is the interceeder for sinners before God!

[Jaime]

The rosary is the most powerful instrument of prayer given to us.

[KnightofChrist]

The Rosary is a prayerful mediation on the Life and Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

The Rosary is an entirely Christocentric prayer. Our Lady, if nothing else, leads all to her Divine Son. She forever echoes her words in the sacred Scriptures, [i]'Do whatever [b]He[/b] tells you'[/i].

[Maggyie]

My favorite form of the Holy Rosary is the Scriptural Rosary, in which passages from Scripture are used to meditate on each mystery.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]when a Catholic prays the rosary, are they trusting in a inanimate object or the Living God? [/quote]When a charismatic Protestant listens to a CD of worship music and raises their hands in the air, are they trusting in an inanimate object (the CD player) and physical gestures (the raising of their hands) or the Living God?

Most Protestants would find that question ridiculous. They would explain that the CD player isn't a god, just an aid to worship. They would explain that their physical gestures symbolise their love for God rather than preventing them from expressing it. And they're right.

It's the same with Catholics and the rosary. Human beings need tangible objects to help with concentration. This is why good teachers have a variety of different materials to engage the attention of a class. Having something to hold prevents the mind from wandering and allows you to focus on your meditation. In the case of the rosary, the meditations are passages from Scripture. Today, for example, I prayed the Joyful Mysteries of the rosary. These mysteries are the Annunciation (the appearance of the Angel Gabriel to Mary), the Visitation (Mary's visit to Elizabeth), the birth of Jesus, the presentation of Jesus at the Temple, and the finding of the lost child Jesus in the Temple.

Who knows you better than your mother, the woman who shared her body and her own lifeblood with you for nine months, cared for you as a vulnerable baby, educated you and watched you grow? Mary has a lot to teach us about her Son, especially through the gift of the rosary. As John Paul II once said, "To pray the rosary is to contemplate with Mary the face of Christ."

[quote]When they are praying to a saint in heaven by reading their canonized card, are they giving glory to a card, or our father who is in heaven?[/quote]

When you read the Bible, are you giving glory to a book, to a wad of paper, or to Our Father Who is in Heaven?

I think you know the answer to that one. When I read prayers that other people have written, my mind is on what those words [i]mean[/i]. Not the fact that they are written down on a card that I am holding in my hand.

[quote]I don't know how many times my mother, a devout catholic, will tell me that pray to a saint will have a miracle because she saw a rose in a newspaper![/quote]I don't think you understand what your mum is saying. As she mentions roses, I am guessing that she has been praying to St Therese of Lisieux, who promised to 'let fall from Heaven a shower of roses' as she lay on her deathbed. She also said, "I feel that my mission is about to begin...my mission to make souls love God as I love Him." Therese is of course still active in that precious mission of bringing souls to God - and as roses are her sign, she will often leave them lying about. Once the nave of the church was suddenly filled with a beautiful smell of roses as I was praying for Therese's intercession. And there were no roses in the building.

It's sheer folly to base your faith on such things. But Therese is not encouraging people to do that. Her mission is to encourage us in our friendship with God. Our heavenly friends like to inspire and encourage us just as much as our earthly friends do. I'm sure nobody would dream of saying that it's wrong to discuss spiritual matters with a friend from church and ask them to pray for you. For Catholics, this is no different from asking our friends in Heaven to intercede.

[quote]Saying she is praying for sinners is wrong too, because only Christ is the interceeder for sinners before God![/quote]

Do you pray for people? For your friends and family? If you do, stop at once. "Christ is the intercessor for sinners before God!"

That's the way your logic is tending. We are all 'intercessors' for sinners - because we are all one in Christ. We're not detracting from His uniqueness at all. Instead, we're making it clear to the world by showing that we are His mystical body, aflame with His Holy Spirit.

[mortify]

First let me address the issue of images.

The commandment is not prohibiting pictures and statues, even religious ones. Take a look at the following scripture and keep in mind these verses were revealed [b]after[/b] the ten commandents:

[color="#0000FF"]"The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." Numbers 21:8

Make an atonement cover [c] of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. [d] 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. 21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you.
Exodus 25: 17-22

In the inner sanctuary he made a pair of cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits [l] high. 24 One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. 25 The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape. 26 The height of each cherub was ten cubits. 27 He placed the cherubim inside the innermost room of the temple, with their wings spread out. The wing of one cherub touched one wall, while the wing of the other touched the other wall, and their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. 28 He overlaid the cherubim with gold.
1 Kings 6: 23-28

On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers. 30 He also covered the floors of both the inner and outer rooms of the temple with gold.
1 Kings 6: 29-30

For the entrance of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive wood with five-sided jambs. 32 And on the two olive wood doors he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid the cherubim and palm trees with beaten gold.
1 Kings 6: 31-32[/color]


Clearly God does not forbid religious icons and statuary as He commanded it Himself (1 Chronicles 28:18-19), so what was God referring to when He forbade graven images? In exodus the Israelites created a golden calf and worshipped it; they believed it to be god himself, that is what God was forbidding. When a Catholic venerates a statue of Mary, we are not worshipping the stone since we don't worship Saints and we don't confuse the material (i.e. stone) with what it represents. The very reason why we venerate a statue of Mary is because it represents her, and she deserves honor and respect. Does honoring Mary and other Saints sound blasphemous? You should consider the fact that God *commands* us to honor our parents, if honoring our parents doesn't detract from honoring God, then there is nothing wrong with honoring the Saints who are more worthy of honor than our parents! By the way, do you know what worship means? It means to honor a deity. We don't believe our parents or the saints are deities, and so honoring them doesn't fall under worship.

This may seem strange to a protestant but its really not. How do you guys treat the bible? Do you keep it on the ground? Would you be scandalized if someone burned it or ripped it to pieces? It's just paper, isn't it? Yes, it's a book made of material like any other but it [i]represents[/i] the Word of God and therefore it deserves respect and honor. What about the flag, do we worship it when we solute it? Are idolizing it when we forbid desecrating it? The flag is not America, but it represents America, and so desecrating what symbolizes our country is like desecrating the country itself. Now we know Jesus had a mother, and we know He followed the law perfectly and therefore He honored His mother (ain't that something!!). We too honor her and all those faithful souls that lived extraordinary lives of grace, and we respect any image or statue that represents them.

Think of it this way, we do with images what you do with the bible.

When you get down to it, it's a matter of semantics. In the English language there is a distinction between worship and veneration, and every protestant should be familiar with it.


God Bless

Edited May 20, 2007 by mortify

[mortify]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1277642' date='May 19 2007, 02:08 PM']When you give power to Rosaries, and Cards, you are giving power to something that Only God should get. I don't know how many times my mother, a devout catholic, will tell me that pray to a saint will have a miracle because she saw a rose in a newspaper![/quote]

Consider the following:

[color="#0000FF"]"God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even [b]handkerchiefs[/b] and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them."[/color]
Acts 19:11-12

Wake up my friend, God works through His creation, including but not limited to the [b]inanimate objects[/b] that touched St Paul, the Relics of Saints, and images representing them.

[quote]This is ridiculous, and it is Blasphemy! Jesus Christ doesn't need anybody to come to him and say, God Chaser, your son, said I should tell you that he needs this and that. I pray to my father in heaven in the name of Jesus Christ, and I know he hears my requests and will perform his will in my life!

Now, Catholics will say that this is exactly what the Apostles preached. But if they did, where is it in the Scripture?[/quote]

Consider the following:

[color="#0000FF"]"Is any one of you sick? He should [b]call the elders[/b] of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. [...]Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. [b]The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective[/b]."[/color]
James 5: 14-16

My only question is why [b]call[/b] on the elders? Why can't we pray straight to the Source, the Lord Himself? What good are these elders, they're human afterall. The answer is in verse 16, the prayer of the righteous is [b]powerful[/b]. When we [b]call[/b] on a Saint we do so in the hopes that they would intercede for us, and this is something Holy Scripture asks of us

[mortify]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1277642' date='May 19 2007, 02:08 PM']When they read a card with a picture of Jesus Christ, are they repeating vain repetitions, or are they giving glory to the only blessed poentate, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, our Lord, Saviour, and God Jesus Christ![/quote]

How many times did the Lord pray the *same* exact prayer in the Garden of Gethsemany?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mortify' post='1277869' date='May 19 2007, 09:50 PM']How many times did the Lord pray the *same* exact prayer in the Garden of Gethsemany?[/quote]

Same prayer, repeated three times. And God must hate it that He can't shut up those four living creatures in Rev. 4 that keep crying out unceasingly the same words day and night, "Holy, Holy, Holy, etc." And Jesus Himself probably skipped over the repetitious Psalms when He was praying in the Temple, especially the one where "His mercy endures forever" is repeated after every line. Anyone familiar with the Psalms knows how repetitious they are. But Jesus left those Psalms out. :

Sad thing is, God Chaser doesn't know enough to be interpreting Scripture and he doesn't have any authority to guide him. The charge of "vain repetition" was made against [b]pagan[/b] prayers; the names of pagan gods were called out, one after another, in the hope of cathing the attention of the gods. To think the term applies to Christian prayers, prayers addressed to God's own Mother and to His best and closest friends, is a serious case of that word that begins with "i" and means "not knowing." Jewish and Christian prayers are repetitious, but they are not "vain."

As a former Protestant, I can tell you that there's nothing more "vainly repetitious" than "Lord, I just praise you," "Lord, I just thank you," Lord, I just ask you," "Lord, I just want to," "Lord, I just (fill in the blank)" over and over again. Thank God for beautiful Catholic meditations and prayers!

Likos

[carrdero]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1277677' date='May 19 2007, 03:24 PM']The rosary is the most powerful instrument of prayer given to us.[/quote]
Actually this most powerful instrument would be our minds.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1278068' date='May 20 2007, 04:01 PM']Actually this most powerful instrument would be our minds.[/quote]

Do you mean that our brains are instruments our souls use to pray to God? I suppose in that case it really would be the most powerful instrument, since we need it to do other things like pray the Rosary. Or by "mind" do you mean "soul" or "heart"? In my philo class I pretty much failed the chapter on dualism.

[Starets]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1277926' date='May 20 2007, 01:58 AM']Same prayer, repeated three times. And God must hate it that He can't shut up those four living creatures in Rev. 4 that keep crying out unceasingly the same words day and night, "Holy, Holy, Holy, etc." And Jesus Himself probably skipped over the repetitious Psalms when He was praying in the Temple, especially the one where "His mercy endures forever" is repeated after every line. Anyone familiar with the Psalms knows how repetitious they are. But Jesus left those Psalms out. :[/quote]

Yep. Psalm 136. "For His Love endures forever" 26 times or so

[Mary-Kathryn]

Perhaps if you could take some time and learn what the prayers of the roasry were it wouldn't put you off so much. I do not have quite the time, but perhaps another kind soul here would provide you with the mysteries of the rosary or at least a very good link? It is very Biblical you know, nothing you haven't been taught to believe.

[journeyman]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1277642' date='May 19 2007, 02:08 PM']Lets talk about praying to the Saints and Mary!

<snip>
where is it in the Scripture?[/quote]

Two of the prayer components of the Rosary devotion are The Apostles Creed and The Our Father . . . I presume there is no difficulty there. The greeting of the angel Gabriel is from Luke, as is the greeting from her cousin Elizabeth (Luke 1:28; Luke 1:41-45) I presume there is no dispute that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, nor that Jesus is the Son of God and second aspect of the Trinity. The obligation of all Christians to pray for one another can be found in 1 Timothy 2:1-4, and the beneficial aspects of prayer by the righteous are noted in James 5:16. I will also presume there is no objection to this portion of the devotion: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.

Joyful Mysteries:
Annunciation Luke 1:26-39
Visitation Luke 1:39-56
Birth: Luke 2:1-21
Presentation Luke 2:22-38
Finding Luke 2:41-52

Luminous Mysteries:
Baptism Matthew 3:13-16
Wedding at Cana John 2:1-11
Proclamation Mark 1:14-15
Transfiguration Matthew 17:1-8; Luke 9
Last Supper Matthew 26, John 13

Sorrowful Mysteries:
Agony in the Garden Matthew 26:36-56
Scourging Matthew 27:36
Crowning with Thorns Matthew 27:27-31
Carrying the Cross Matthew 27:32, John 19:17-18
Crucifixion Matthew 27:33-56, Luke 23:45-46

Glorious Mysteries
Resurrection John 20:1-19
Ascension Luke 24:36-53
Descent of Holy Spirit Acts 2:1-41
Assumption of Mary - Sacred Tradition
Coronation of Mary - Sacred Tradition

For an argument that there is a scriptural basis for the last two mysteries, see: [url="http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/LastTwoGloriousMysteries.html"]Here[/url]
For Pope John Paul II's summary, see: [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm54.htm"]Here[/url]
For a summary of the inferences from Scripture and Tradition supporting these two mysteries, which are dogma of the Church, see Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp. 209–210
Within Phatmass itself is a sizable reference section: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/5"]Here[/url]

The Rosary is all about the Gospel, it's all about Jesus.