The Bush Administration Responsible For Sunni Extremists?

[Apotheoun]

We have entered a World War, and we better win it. In fact, winning this war is even more important than winning the war fought against Nazism.

[Sojourner]

As much as I hate the way we got into this, I have a sneaking suspicion that we will not be getting out anytime soon, much as I would like us to. I have a feeling things will get much worse before they get better.

[Apotheoun]

Iraq is simply a minor skirmish, a battle in a greater war. That said, the war that we are presently fighting is the continuation of the 1400 year long conflict between the Islamic world (i.e., what Muslims call the "Dar al-Islam") and the non-Muslim world (i.e., what Muslims call the "Dar al-Harb"). We better win or we will see St. Peter's turned into a Mosque, just as the Byzantines saw Hagia Sophia desecrated by the Muslims.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283011' date='May 28 2007, 08:38 PM']I just finished reading the article, and it is well written, but it is hardly "proof" that the Bush administration is causing Islamo-fascist terrorism. Islam is the real problem, not the Bush administration.[/quote]

There's a substantial amount of proof, but even aside from this article, this isn't the first time that this has happened. Bush 41's administration funded Islamic extremists too.


[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1283017' date='May 28 2007, 08:39 PM']I think the allegation is not that they cause it, but rather that they fund it.[/quote]

That's right, they funded it.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283031' date='May 28 2007, 08:47 PM']The problem is that Islam is extremist in its theology itself (read the Qu'ran and the Hadith). Non-Muslims have no rights under Sharia law, and the Islamic understanding of martyrdom, which involves killing non-Muslims, is not martyrdom in the Christian (or even the Jewish) sense of the word.[/quote]

This is completely false, but if you'd like to attempt to prove me wrong, give some proof [Hadeeths, Quranic Surahs, etc]


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283060' date='May 28 2007, 08:56 PM']Time will tell. Nevertheless, Islam is the problem, not the Bush administration, and not even the pacifistic Democrats in Congress -- although lack of resolve in the face of Islamic aggression has always led to dire consequences for non-Muslims.

Anyone even remotely familiar with history is aware of the fact that Muslims have been at war with the non-Islamic world since the foundation of the Islamic religion in the 7th century, and the sooner that Americans (and other non-Muslim peoples) recognize this fact, the better.[/quote]

Obviously you're not very familiar with the religion of Islam, as you falsely represent Islam over and over again. I'd stated several times that we have a different thread dedicated to Islam and Muslims but since you won't discuss it there, let's discuss it here... give proof to your claims.


[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1283090' date='May 28 2007, 09:05 PM']Actually I think that is one of our biggest weaknesses in dealing with the Middle East -- we have no sense of the history there. I think that really hampers us both in war and in negotiations.[/quote]

That's right, no sense of history or culture.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283097' date='May 28 2007, 09:09 PM']We have entered a World War, and we better win it. In fact, winning this war is even more important than winning the war fought against Nazism.[/quote]

We have "entered"? That's quite an understatement, we funded and trained the so called "extremists" that we're supposedly fighting. How can you win a war with a corrupt moral code? We funded Saddam for over a decade with money, WMD, etc. for the strict purpose of killing Iranians during the imposed war. We funded and trained Al-Quida and the Taliban also, in their fight against Russia and we even funded Al-Islamic Brotherhood in their fight against the secular leaders of Egypt, which back-fired and resulted in the killing of Coptic Christians. How is this "winning"?


[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1283099' date='May 28 2007, 09:13 PM']As much as I hate the way we got into this, I have a sneaking suspicion that we will not be getting out anytime soon, much as I would like us to. I have a feeling things will get much worse before they get better.[/quote]

Its not a war of winning or losing, as much as people would like to marginalize it as such.


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283112' date='May 28 2007, 09:23 PM']Iraq is simply a minor skirmish, a battle in a greater war. That said, the war that we are presently fighting is the continuation of the 1400 year long conflict between the Islamic world (i.e., what Muslims call the "Dar al-Islam") and the non-Muslim world (i.e., what Muslims call the "Dar al-Harb"). We better win or we will see St. Peter's turned into a Mosque, just as the Byzantines saw Hagia Sophia desecrated by the Muslims.[/quote]

A minor "skirmish"? We're getting wasted in Iraq on every angle. Have you checked the death tolls? This isn't a "skirmish", this is a civil war battle that is spinning out of control. It's ridiculous to say that it's a 1400 year long conflict between Muslims and Non-Muslims, Muslims have helped Christians throughout history also, just so you know. Prior to the US Funding Al-Islamic Brotherhood, there was a secular society in which Christians and Muslims were living peacefully amongst each other with no conflicts. Muslim helped save the Copts from being annihilated during the crusades. A friend of mine's mother [who is quite an elderly woman] remembers back in Palestine, prior to the creation of the secular state of Isreal, when Jews, Muslms and Christians all live in harmony, and Muslims used to baby sit her. Even right now in Palestine, Christians and Muslims get along very well.

Several Churches were on the brink of being burned to the ground [about a year ago] by the secular Fateh, and it was Hamas [those "radicals" that you seem to be talking about] that used their soldiers to protect the Christian Churches from being burnt to the ground. That's right, Hamas, the same group that you seem to be pointing a dirty finger at, while shaking your head.

Reza

[Red Knight]

I am seeing a distinct lack of understanding regarding how wars (cold and otherwise) are fought and how a government seeks to serve the "Nation's" interest, not that of individual groups within the government.

Throughout history, competing nations have repeatedly fought 'proxy' wars through other states or 'jihadists' in order to accomplish a goal for their benefit. It is similar to the axiom "my enemy's enemy is my friend." The problem is that sometimes, when the shared enemy is no longer a significant threat, your 'friend' is no longer your friend.

Another concept at play is that of divide and conquer. If I want to bring down a greater enemy, I can fund a sub-organization in order to create chaos and disarray.

Politics and war are both very ugly business. Reza, despite 'death tolls', this is a skirmish in a greater conflict. I wouldn't say minor, because it is a key to our success in the middle east. Your spin on how horrible things are going in Iraq is straight out of the media playbook.

I've been there, I have friends and family that have been there, and I have friends that are there now. I get intel from Iraq frequently. We are doing quite well there.

But back to the point, sometimes, in the grand scheme of intergovernmental relations, the leaders of nations must make difficult decisions in how to prosecute a war. I pray you never have to.

Red

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Red Knight' post='1283365' date='May 29 2007, 09:21 AM']I am seeing a distinct lack of understanding regarding how wars (cold and otherwise) are fought and how a government seeks to serve the "Nation's" interest, not that of individual groups within the government.[/quote] This is a hot war, not the coldwar.

[quote]Throughout history, competing nations have repeatedly fought 'proxy' wars through other states or 'jihadists' in order to accomplish a goal for their benefit. It is similar to the axiom "my enemy's enemy is my friend." The problem is that sometimes, when the shared enemy is no longer a significant threat, your 'friend' is no longer your friend.[/quote]Has this helped our nation or other nations? Did supporting the taliban and Al-Quida and the Muhajadeen help the united states? Did it help during the crusades? Has it ever worked or helped? Empowering Al-Fatah because you hate Hezbollah so much, does that help democracy, the cause of freedom and peace? Did giving weapons to Saddam for the strict purpose of killing Iranians [that ultimately totaled over a million] help the situation? Iran was no threat to the united states, but that sort of foreign policy of hatred, is what caused not only Iranians more harm [death] but our own nation, as they are our enemy now. Do you really think that they are just going to forget that fact? The proper moral stance to take, is to turn the other cheek and form policies of love.

[quote]Another concept at play is that of divide and conquer. If I want to bring down a greater enemy, I can fund a sub-organization in order to create chaos and disarray.[/quote]

If you don't agree with that "sub organization"'s policy, it would be hypocritical to support them. Funding and training a group of people to become mass killing machines, with the strict intention of having them go into another society and massively kill men, women and children [most that are innocent] isn't a noble cause, no matter how much you attempt to spin it.

[quote]Politics and war are both very ugly business.[/quote]So because it's "ugly business" that gives individuals that right to lay down their moral code, for a sinful political code?

[quote]Reza, despite 'death tolls', this is a skirmish in a greater conflict. I wouldn't say minor, because it is a key to our success in the middle east.[/quote] Iraq had nothing to do with "the war on terror", as Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 or Al-Quida [even the Bush administration, except for Mr. Cheney, has admitted this]. Therefore it's not part of "the greater conflict". What are you gonna do, go into every nation that you disagree with politically and force the people to adhere to your way of thinking, at the barrel of a gun? The North Korean Leader was far more of a threat then Saddam ever was, but because the US is bogged down in Iraq, that leaves little to no options to dealing with that man, that is a threat.

[quote]Your spin on how horrible things are going in Iraq is straight out of the media playbook.[/quote]And everything that you've said is the method to which the Bush Administration and your other Fundie Rightwingers use to justify their wars.

[quote]I've been there, I have friends and family that have been there, and I have friends that are there now. I get intel from Iraq frequently. We are doing quite well there.[/quote] I have family members there too, my sister helped train the soldiers on Arabic prior to going into war, I talk with my family in Iraq and in the surrounding countries [including Iran] frequently, so what's your point? I've also served in the American Armed forces [Army], and talk with the troops regularly, so again, what is your point? Nearly everyone that I know in the middle east, or that is from the middle east, disagrees with you, and the same goes for the majority of troops that I talk to regularly.

[quote]But back to the point, sometimes, in the grand scheme of intergovernmental relations, the leaders of nations must make difficult decisions in how to prosecute a war.[/quote]So moral ethics aside, supporting terror networks is justified, even if their strict intention is to kill men, women and children... oh I get it now, you've made it so much clearer for me.

[quote]I pray you never have to.[/quote] And I def pray that you never get the opportunity.

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283112' date='May 28 2007, 10:23 PM']Iraq is simply a minor skirmish, a battle in a greater war. That said, the war that we are presently fighting is the continuation of the 1400 year long conflict between the Islamic world (i.e., what Muslims call the "Dar al-Islam") and the non-Muslim world (i.e., what Muslims call the "Dar al-Harb"). We better win or we will see St. Peter's turned into a Mosque, just as the Byzantines saw Hagia Sophia desecrated by the Muslims.[/quote]

God willing we'll turn Mecca into a Cathedral

[Red Knight]

Reza,

Such vitriolic rambling accomplish very little.

I see you do not understand my post at all, since all you could do was attack me, not my statements and how they apply.

You affirmed my position as stated at the beginning of my post.

I have had my suspicions of you from the first posts of yours I read, this garbage just confirms them.

In every post dealing with Islam you attack the people posting, not the post. You claim to know so much of Islam and have relatives in almost every Islamic nation in the world (I gathered that from your posts on other websites). Yet, you deny that violence is inherent in Islam. It is preached continuously around the world.

I have heard too many times that violent jihad is not what Mohammed believed or taught, that may be (I doubt it), what Islam is now, is a religion of violence and oppression.

All you seem to do is Islamic apologetics and fail to recognize the threat that Islam poses to the world. What is worse than that is that you try your hardest to steer others to your misguided belief that Islam is a religion of peace.

I see you for the sham you are, I hope everyone else here will as well.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Red Knight' post='1284495' date='May 30 2007, 03:00 PM']Reza,

Such vitriolic rambling accomplish very little.[/quote] It wasn't rambling, if you consider:

[code]So because it's "ugly business" that gives individuals that right to lay down their moral code, for a sinful political code?[/code] to be rambling, then you have a serious problem.

[quote]I see you do not understand my post at all, since all you could do was attack me, not my statements and how they apply. [/quote]Whatever dude, I went through everyone of your claims, and provided better solutions and questioned you about them. If you consider that "attacking" then you have a serious problem

[quote]You affirmed my position as stated at the beginning of my post.[/quote] Whatever dude...

[quote]I have had my suspicions of you from the first posts of yours I read, this garbage just confirms them.[/quote]You were the one that said:

[code]Throughout history, competing nations have repeatedly fought 'proxy' wars through other states or 'jihadists' in order to accomplish a goal for their benefit. It is similar to the axiom "my enemy's enemy is my friend." The problem is that sometimes, when the shared enemy is no longer a significant threat, your 'friend' is no longer your friend.[/code]

And I simply straightened you out from a moral and historical aspect:

[code]Has this helped our nation or other nations? Did supporting the taliban and Al-Quida and the Muhajadeen help the united states? Did it help during the crusades? Has it ever worked or helped? Empowering Al-Fatah because you hate Hezbollah so much, does that help democracy, the cause of freedom and peace? Did giving weapons to Saddam for the strict purpose of killing Iranians [that ultimately totaled over a million] help the situation? Iran was no threat to the united states, but that sort of foreign policy of hatred, is what caused not only Iranians more harm [death] but our own nation, as they are our enemy now. Do you really think that they are just going to forget that fact? The proper moral stance to take, is to turn the other cheek and form policies of love.[/code]
[quote]
In every post dealing with Islam you attack the people posting, not the post. You claim to know so much of Islam and have relatives in almost every Islamic nation in the world (I gathered that from your posts on other websites). Yet, you deny that violence is inherent in Islam. It is preached continuously around the world.[/quote]

No I didn't, I addressed your views on Islam, how they are false. That's right, I disagree with your idea that Islam is inherently violent, what's your point? How does that attack you. Once you become familiar with this forum, you'll see that there's a guy named "Catholic Annonymous" that was born and raised in Saudi Arabia that also disagrees with your assessment on Islam. This is a man that was raised in Madrassa, and became Roman Catholic years later in England. You're just brandishing an ignorant stereotype that you saw on your fox news channel, you provide no proof whatsoever.

[quote]I have heard too many times that violent jihad is not what Mohammed believed or taught, that may be (I doubt it), what Islam is now, is a religion of violence and oppression.[/quote]Do you even know what the word "jihad" means, and what examples are given in the Quran in regards to it? You go around using this word, that you probably don't even know what it means. Claiming that Islam is no a religion of violence and oppression is simply missing the facts. 5 women to ever 1 man in America become Muslim and it's the fastest growing religion [by far] in the world, obviously a mass amount of people see it differently then you.

[quote]All you seem to do is Islamic apologetics and fail to recognize the threat that Islam poses to the world. What is worse than that is that you try your hardest to steer others to your misguided belief that Islam is a religion of peace.[/quote]

No rather I state the facts. You have just made false claims about the religion as a whole, with no facts whatsoever. I was raised a Muslim throughout my teens, by mostly women. My sister was raised in Morocco most of her life, in madrassa. In Morocco most girls in school only learn French and English, but my sister challenged everyone by attending arabic with her male counterparts also, and didn't face any discrimination. It was difficult, but she graduated along with them. Don't sit here and talk to me about Islamic culture, I was raised by mostly women, that were born and raised in this culture. After being guided by the Holy Spirit to Christianity, I became Coptic Orthodox [which I am now], which also is a church located in the middle east, in Egypt. I have a vast about of close Christian friends in Palestine, so don't lecture me about this, saying that I don't know what I'm talking about. I talk with these people everyday.

From time to time, I help my sister with the Morocco Foundation, help to build wells in the desert in Morocco, to put food in the belly of starving children, that are Muslim but couldn't careless that I'm a Christian.

[quote]I see you for the sham you are, I hope everyone else here will as well.[/quote]

Tell me: What's more shameful, basing everything that I claim to know on stereotypes of the opinions of those that actually live in the culture? Claiming to know the religion, while not being able to judge the religion according to it's holy book, or knowing it's holy book enough to know that what youre claiming is rubbish? See the difference between you and me is that I know the Qur'an well enough to know why I don't believe in it, so I don't have to resort to false claims about the religion and stereotypes in order to discredit it, I can use intellect and disprove it with it's doctrine.

[Red Knight]

Reza,

Your arrogance is astounding. You immediatley assume that anyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent than you or completely uneducated. Stellar.

Stereotypes aren't inherently bad. Stereotypes are formed from a repeated behaviour of a group. The stereotype of Muslims, is that they are violent and seek the spread of Islam through violence. Why is there a stereotype? Because, in the lens of history, Islam was spread by the sword.

I honestly don't care what you think the Qur'an has to say about it. I judge the Islamic faith by it's actions. Don't bother bringing up the Crusades, because your ignorance on the topic is staggering. Have there been horrible acts of violence in Christian history? Yes, but they were aberrations. The Crusades were in defence of Christendom. Roughly two-thirds of Christendom were brought under Islam by the sword before the Crusades.

Your favorite punching bag, Robert Spencer, is starting a blog specifically addressing the Qur'an. He intends to go through the Qur'an, surah by surah, using contemporary Islamic interpretations of the text, not his own, to state what the Qur'an is saying. You should check it out, you will probably learn a lot.

In my defense, I never stated that it was moral or ethical for governments to fight proxy wars and fund terrorist organizations. I understand that there are things that ALL governments do, that the public doesn't know, and to some degree doesn't want to know. That doesn't make it right.

I brought up the points that I did because there appeared to be a lack of knowledge regarding the issue. The fact you misunderstood what I stated just confirmed my earlier opinions of you.

Whether you believe it or not, the West is under attack from Islamic fascists, and if we don't do something about it, they will succeed. You attitude and insistence that this is not the real Islam won't help.

Whatever Islam was in Mohammeds day, it is seeking world domination through violence today. If you don't see that now, you will. Probably not until the media does, which will not bode well for any of us.

I will admit that I am not a scholar of the Qur'an. I seek out information via the web and crosscheck it for valid citations and don't believe everything I read on first glance.

To be told that I just spew what I am force fed by Fox news is, frankly, insulting. I rarely watch Fox news. I rarely watch TV at all anymore.

I suggest you check out [url="http://www.religionofpeace.org"]Religion of Peace[/url]. I understand you will probably glance at the homepage and retort that it is simply a "propaganda" web site, which appears to be your only comeback to any website that backs an opinion counter to yours.

Frankly, I am quite fed up with your canned responses to everyone on this site. By the way, I am quite familiar with this site as would be noticed by anyone posting on this site simply by looking at the fact I am member number 82 and technically have been a member of Phatmass longer than that due to a changeover in the phorum software back in '03. So, condescend all you like.

Red

-edited for grammar

Edited June 1, 2007 by Red Knight

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Red Knight' post='1285885' date='Jun 1 2007, 11:22 AM']Reza,

Your arrogance is astounding. You immediatley assume that anyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent than you or completely uneducated. Stellar.[/quote] With all due respect it was you that began talking down to me, suggesting less intellect. I simply disagreed with you, and pointed out specifically where. Let me quote you:

[code]I am seeing a distinct lack of understanding regarding how wars (cold and otherwise) are fought and how a government seeks to serve the "Nation's" interest, not that of individual groups within the government.[/code]

As I'd pointed out: There is no lack of understanding, I'd been a soldier in the United States Army and have relatives that live in Iraq [some civilians in the middle east and some United States Army Soldiers]. I simply disagree with you on the fundemental tacts, it had nothing to do with accusing you of being less intelligent, on the contrary, that was your tone.

[quote]Stereotypes aren't inherently bad. Stereotypes are formed from a repeated behaviour of a group. The stereotype of Muslims, is that they are violent and seek the spread of Islam through violence. Why is there a stereotype? Because, in the lens of history, Islam was spread by the sword.[/quote]This is again your interpretation and overstereotype, not to mention own interpretation of history. This isn't something that is fundementally agreed upon, not even remotely. There was a stereotype that Hitler used during WWII that said that all Jews were filthy rich and had big noses, was it true?

[quote]I honestly don't care what you think the Qur'an has to say about it. I judge the Islamic faith by it's actions. Don't bother bringing up the Crusades, because your ignorance on the topic is staggering. Have there been horrible acts of violence in Christian history? Yes, but they were aberrations. The Crusades were in defence of Christendom. Roughly two-thirds of Christendom were brought under Islam by the sword before the Crusades.[/quote] What are you talking about? The Crusades were in defense of Christendom? So killing defenseless Copts that never ever threatened a single individual on this earth, was in defense of Christendom huh? Seriously your worldview is warped, even His Holiness Pope John Paul II acknowledged the problems that the Crusades inflicted upon innocent Christians, he even went as far as returning the relics of St. Mark to the Copts. I find it quite disturbing and hypocritical that whenever stereotypes apply to Muslims, you assume they are true and that the actions of a few speak for the whole religion and demographic but the minute there are stereotypes about Roman Catholics such as Mass Murderers [with the crusades] and pedofile priests, you say that it doesn't represent the church as a whole or attempt to justify it.

Just as you don't like false stereotypes, neither does anyone else.

[quote]Your favorite punching bag, Robert Spencer, is starting a blog specifically addressing the Qur'an. He intends to go through the Qur'an, surah by surah, using contemporary Islamic interpretations of the text, not his own, to state what the Qur'an is saying. You should check it out, you will probably learn a lot.[/quote]I don't need to learn about Islam from someone that doesn't believe in Islam and isn't a credible source. I'd studied Islam most of my lifetime, have studied Islamic history, the Qur'an and Hadeeths. I'd even began a discussion here at Phatmass for you to participate in if you'd like, all about studying the Quran. It might help you, to judge the religion for what it is, rather then what you've been told.

[quote]In my defense, I never stated that it was moral or ethical for governments to fight proxy wars and fund terrorist organizations. I understand that there are things that ALL governments do, that the public doesn't know, and to some degree doesn't want to know. That doesn't make it right.[/quote]

You didn't condemn it, as a matter of fact, I'd written a statement condemning it, and you wrote a statement indefense of it. I can quote that too if you'd like?

[quote]I brought up the points that I did because there appeared to be a lack of knowledge regarding the issue. The fact you misunderstood what I stated just confirmed my earlier opinions of you.[/quote]YOU NEVER OUTWARDLY CONDEMNDED IT AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS IN RESPONSE TO MY POST WHICH DID OUTWARDLY CONDEMN IT! Why should I think that you're against it, if you never condemned it and even attacked me for condemning it? It's pretty obvious where you stand.

[quote]Whether you believe it or not, the West is under attack from Islamic fascists, and if we don't do something about it, they will succeed. You attitude and insistence that this is not the real Islam won't help.[/quote] Here's the problem, you don't know nothing about Islam or Islamic culture, the War in Iraq has been proven to promote more Islamic extremists. It's very disturbing how you label everyone that hates the united states as "a terrorist", what about the millions of people that died during the imposed war, that the US promoted? Don't they have a right to their grievences? Don't they have a right to be angry? You act like they have no right to want to bomb the united states, but that we have ever right to invade their country.

[quote]Whatever Islam was in Mohammeds day, it is seeking world domination through violence today. If you don't see that now, you will. Probably not until the media does, which will not bode well for any of us.[/quote]Why do you believe everything that you see on TV? World dominence? Please, that's a pathetic piece of propaganda, you really think that Muqtadir Al-Sadr is going to follow the United States home? He's just angry that you're in his country.

[quote]I will admit that I am not a scholar of the Qur'an. I seek out information via the web and crosscheck it for valid citations and don't believe everything I read on first glance.[/quote]

Don't claim to "know" about Islam, if you don't then...

[code]To be told that I just spew what I am force fed by Fox news is, frankly, insulting. I rarely watch Fox news. I rarely watch TV at all anymore.[/code]

It's even more insulting for Muslims, to have you say untruths about them, based upon your lack of knowledge about the Qur'an and their religion. In the way that you "feel offended" is nothing compared to how you're offending others.

[code]I suggest you check out [url=http://www.religionofpeace.org]Religion of Peace[/url]. I understand you will probably glance at the homepage and retort that it is simply a "propaganda" web site, which appears to be your only comeback to any website that backs an opinion counter to yours.[/code]

And I suggest that you actually read the Quran and learn about Islam from an unbiased standpoint, the make up your mind about Muslims.

Reza