Doctrinal Superiority

[GodChaser]

I will give all you hard core catholics who believe your church has doctrinal superiority over all other churches a chance to convert me.

Every single church in the world claims to be the true church? Ask a Catholic Priest - yes because. Ask a Lutheran Priest - yes because. Ask a Baptist - yes because. Ask a Pentecostal - yes because.

Which church has doctrinal superiority? Which one is truly the true church everybody needs to go to?

Answer me this - I might consider going 'Catholic' if you can describe to me what time period in the 2nd chapter of the book of Joel - What does Pope Benedict say we are in?

And answer me this question -

Who is suppose to gather Israel?

And another quesetion -

When does the ingathering of Israel happen? Does it happened before or after Babylon has been judged? Does it happen before or after the latter day outpouring?

Answer me all these questions in your Catholic Handbooks, and I might consider the Catholic religion to be God's mouth in the world.

If not, I am firmly confident that I am in the hand of the Lord, in his word, and in his will.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Gee...where to start?

First, you are asking the worng question. You should instead ask which church claims to be the one founded by Jesus Christ on the Apostles. Only one church in the entire world claims that. Does it not follow that if a church claimed to be THE true Church, that they would not also claim to be the original Christian Church? Furthermore, should not this church KNOW they are the original Christian Church? Out of 33,000+ 'Christian' churches, one and only one even lays claim to this.

Secondly about doctrinal superiority. Ya really need to define this better. What do you mean by 'superior' and by whose measure? Again, I submit the question itself is incorrect. You should really ask which church follows the doctrines laid out by Christ to his Apostles and handed down through the ages to today. Only two of the 33k churches claim this...and they are both correct. (hint: one is eastern, one is western)

On the third question regarding Joel, the question is alas, faulty again. Instead you should be asking if the events have been fulfilled and if so, how? My answer to the correctly worded question is yes, they have been fulfilled completely fully and forever by the coming of Chirst and the establishment of his Church in 33AD. In the book of Acts (2: 16-21), St. Peter himself declares this by the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Pretty plain to see, methinks.

What does the Pope say? Dunno, but I bet he says the same thing the Bible says.

Who is to gather Israel? That would be God. How many times in the Gospels did Jesus talk about gathering his sheep? How many times did he tell his Apostles (and Peter specifically) that the Gentiles are now grafted to the vine that is Israel. God will gather all of his people (Israel) in his own time and in his own manner, thorugh Jesus Christ. Let God be God, man!

The ingathering....sounds like you've been reading too much Left Behind my friend. Refer to my previous answer. Israel is the name of God's People. We, the Church are God's people. In many of the apocalyptic (style of writing) books of the Bible, Israel is a symbol of ALL of God's people, not just the Jews. God is gather his people now and has been for 2000 years. He will continue to do so until he is done...and he ain't telling when that is! (Acts 1:7)

Babylon. Oh my. Glad you didn't go THERE. I guess to answer this, you gotta figure out who or what Babylon is. Is it the capital of the ancient Babylonian Empire? If so, I would have to say judgement has already been passed, since it fell oh so long ago. Is it modern-day Baghdad? If so, some would argure judgement is being passed as we live and breathe. Is it Rome? If so in what time period? Ancient Rome fell a long time ago as well and the city itself was sacked many times over. That could qualify as a judgement. Or if you are speaking of the book of Revelation, then you gotta do some homework to understand the answer.

You have to put the book into literary context: it was written in code language understood and accepted by members of the early church under persecution, in order to not run afoul of the law. It has sections that are highly allegorical and quite figurative. You also have to put it into historical context: it was written while the church was being persecuted and in need of a message of hope. They needed to be reminded that thier enemies would eventually perish, that Jesus did not forget or abandon his Church, and that they would overcome all trials, tribulations, and persecutions. In short, they needed to hear "In the end, we win!" Babylon in the book of Revelation can mean one of two things: Ancient Rome or Ancient Israel. We can get into THAT discussion in a whole 'nuther thread, after you have consulted the Phatmass reference library (saves a TON of typing).

So back the original question: Has Babylon been judged? I would say yes. Ancient Rome fell and died a slow agonizing death, Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed, the Temple thrown down and the Jewish people dispersed as a nation until 1947.

Dunno to what you are referring on the 'latter day outpouring' statement. If you are referring to Joel again, that question has already been answered above. If not, please clarify.

BTW - not sure what handbooks you speak of. I take everything above from the original Catholic sourcebook - the Holy Bible.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1281998' date='May 26 2007, 11:05 PM']Gee...where to start?

First, you are asking the worng question. You should instead ask which church claims to be the one founded by Jesus Christ on the Apostles. Only one church in the entire world claims that. Does it not follow that if a church claimed to be THE true Church, that they would not also claim to be the original Christian Church? Furthermore, should not this church KNOW they are the original Christian Church? Out of 33,000+ 'Christian' churches, one and only one even lays claim to this.

Secondly about doctrinal superiority. Ya really need to define this better. What do you mean by 'superior' and by whose measure? Again, I submit the question itself is incorrect. You should really ask which church follows the doctrines laid out by Christ to his Apostles and handed down through the ages to today. Only two of the 33k churches claim this...and they are both correct. (hint: one is eastern, one is western)

On the third question regarding Joel, the question is alas, faulty again. Instead you should be asking if the events have been fulfilled and if so, how? My answer to the correctly worded question is yes, they have been fulfilled completely fully and forever by the coming of Chirst and the establishment of his Church in 33AD. In the book of Acts (2: 16-21), St. Peter himself declares this by the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Pretty plain to see, methinks.

What does the Pope say? Dunno, but I bet he says the same thing the Bible says.

Who is to gather Israel? That would be God. How many times in the Gospels did Jesus talk about gathering his sheep? How many times did he tell his Apostles (and Peter specifically) that the Gentiles are now grafted to the vine that is Israel. God will gather all of his people (Israel) in his own time and in his own manner, thorugh Jesus Christ. Let God be God, man!

The ingathering....sounds like you've been reading too much Left Behind my friend. Refer to my previous answer. Israel is the name of God's People. We, the Church are God's people. In many of the apocalyptic (style of writing) books of the Bible, Israel is a symbol of ALL of God's people, not just the Jews. God is gather his people now and has been for 2000 years. He will continue to do so until he is done...and he ain't telling when that is! (Acts 1:7)

Babylon. Oh my. Glad you didn't go THERE. I guess to answer this, you gotta figure out who or what Babylon is. Is it the capital of the ancient Babylonian Empire? If so, I would have to say judgement has already been passed, since it fell oh so long ago. Is it modern-day Baghdad? If so, some would argure judgement is being passed as we live and breathe. Is it Rome? If so in what time period? Ancient Rome fell a long time ago as well and the city itself was sacked many times over. That could qualify as a judgement. Or if you are speaking of the book of Revelation, then you gotta do some homework to understand the answer.

You have to put the book into literary context: it was written in code language understood and accepted by members of the early church under persecution, in order to not run afoul of the law. It has sections that are highly allegorical and quite figurative. You also have to put it into historical context: it was written while the church was being persecuted and in need of a message of hope. They needed to be reminded that thier enemies would eventually perish, that Jesus did not forget or abandon his Church, and that they would overcome all trials, tribulations, and persecutions. In short, they needed to hear "In the end, we win!" Babylon in the book of Revelation can mean one of two things: Ancient Rome or Ancient Israel. We can get into THAT discussion in a whole 'nuther thread, after you have consulted the Phatmass reference library (saves a TON of typing).

So back the original question: Has Babylon been judged? I would say yes. Ancient Rome fell and died a slow agonizing death, Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed, the Temple thrown down and the Jewish people dispersed as a nation until 1947.

Dunno to what you are referring on the 'latter day outpouring' statement. If you are referring to Joel again, that question has already been answered above. If not, please clarify.

BTW - not sure what handbooks you speak of. I take everything above from the original Catholic sourcebook - the Holy Bible.[/quote]
I know that the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches claim to be direct from the Apostles. Claiming, and actually following apostolic doctrine is something different - IMHO.

The physical Babylon has been judged. But Spiritual Babylon still exists. Or how does the whore of Babylon get judged in REvelations 18. I will be glad to hear of her judgement, if I am still alive on the earth at that time.

Right now, the major portion of Babylon is being judged, and after judgement is the ingathering of God's people to the holy land - and God will restore the years that bondage has taken away from Israel. Then the latterday outpouring will happen, where God pours out his spirit on all flesh - former rain being the day of Pentecost, the latter rain will be the same - but with much greater effect - because there will be much less satanic influence on the outpouring. And then judgement of revelation.

I don't take any heed of the left behind series - because pre-trib is a lie.

On your account of Babylon being judged, that means the ingathering of Israel would have happened shortly after, and a revival of the things of God - with god pouring out his spirit on all flesh, and then the tribulation.

Sorry, that proves to me that the Roman Catholic Church has tried to tamper with the meanings of Scripture, and is not following the what the word of God says.

So, I have to conclude - the Roman Catholic church, like all other churches in the world, is not the true church everybody claims it to be.

Don't worry, it's not which religion you belong to that saves you, it is your devotion to Jesus Christ through his death on the Cross. I can't wait to have a BBQ with all of you when we are in the New Jeruselem.

Edited May 28, 2007 by GodChaser

[Apotheoun]

Although your interpretation of [i]Joel[/i] is interesting; nevertheless, I do not find it convincing. The "last days" began with the incarnation of the eternal Logos, and involved His paschal sacrifice and resurrection, which led to the outpouring of the energy of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Thus, I do not accept as valid your symbolic interpretation of the of the former and the latter rains in [i]Joel[/i] as signifying two different "pentecosts."

By what authority do you make this distinction? A distinction, by the way, that was only made after the Protestant Reformation.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1282354' date='May 27 2007, 07:28 PM']Although your interpretation of [i]Joel[/i] is interesting; nevertheless, I do not find it convincing. The "last days" began with the incarnation of the eternal Logos, and involved His paschal sacrifice and resurrection, which led to the outpouring of the energy of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Thus, I do not accept as valid your symbolic interpretation of the of the former and the latter rains in [i]Joel[/i] as signifying two different "pentecosts."

By what authority do you make this distinction? A distinction, by the way, that was only made after the Protestant Reformation.[/quote]
[quote name='"Joel 2:22-24' date=' JPS"']Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: [b]for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.[/b]

And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.[/quote]
God says there is a former rain (Day of Pentecost), and a latter rain which will come after, and it shall be like the first, but faster, and with much greater results.

If what you say is true, the Pentecostals can say, he we have what you don't have. Now if you understand the truth, one rain and then another rain, than you can say - both are wrong, and I will walk away. It's called rightly diving the word, the mark of a mature follower of Christ.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1282371' date='May 27 2007, 07:13 PM']God says there is a former rain (Day of Pentecost), and a latter rain which will come after, and it shall be like the first, but faster, and with much greater results.

[quote]Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: [b]for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month[/b].[/quote]
If what you say is true, the Pentecostals can say, he we have what you don't have. Now if you understand the truth, one rain and then another rain, than you can say - both are wrong, and I will walk away. It's called rightly diving the word, the mark of a mature follower of Christ.[/quote]
Simply putting a part of the text into boldface print proves nothing (except that you know how to use boldface text), nor am I at all impressed by the assertions of a Pentecostal, since the Pentecostal movement only arose within Protestantism in the early 20th century.

That said, I do not see any reason, i.e., based on the text of [i]Joel[/i] itself, to hold that the verse must be divided in the way that you are dividing it.

By what authority do you make this novel symbolic interpretation and division of the text?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1282371' date='May 27 2007, 07:13 PM']God says there is a former rain (Day of Pentecost), and a latter rain which will come after, and it shall be like the first, but faster, and with much greater results.

[. . .][/quote]
I do not see God saying this; instead, I see you saying that the former rain is the "day of Pentecost," while the latter rain is somehow different. Your assertion is not proof.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1282378' date='May 27 2007, 08:27 PM']If what you say is true, the Pentecostals can say, he we have what you don't have. Now if you understand the truth, one rain and then another rain, than you can say - both are wrong, and I will walk away. It's called rightly diving the word, the mark of a mature follower of Christ.
Simply putting a part of the text into boldface print proves nothing (except that you know how to use boldface text), nor am I at all impressed by the assertions of a Pentecostal, since the Pentecostal movement only arose within Protestantism in the early 20th century.

That said, I do not see any reason, i.e., based on the text of [i]Joel[/i] itself, to hold that the verse must be divided in the way that you are dividing it.

By what authority do you make this novel symbolic interpretation and division of the text?[/quote]
So what you are saying is.

Historically -

1.) The Day of Pentecost happens.
2.) Then - either Jerusuelm or Rome falls.
3.) Then in 1949 Israel is gathered together.
4.) Then the judgement will happen.

Is that correct?

Is that how the Roman Catholics view history?

How do you resolve this in the prophetic history of the 2nd chapter of the book of Joel, or in fact, any prophetical history.

[quote name='"Joel 2:1-11' date=' JPS"']Blow ye the horn in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is at hand; A day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, as blackness spread upon the mountains; a great people and a mighty, there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after them, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them, and behind them a flame blazeth; the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing escapeth them. [b]The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so do they run.[/b] Like the noise of chariots, on the tops of the mountains do they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a mighty people set in battle array. At their presence the peoples are in anguish; all faces have gathered blackness. They run like mighty men, they climb the wall like men of war; and they move on every one in his ways, and they entangle not their paths. Neither doth one thrust another, they march every one in his highway; and they break through the weapons, and suffer no harm. They leap upon the city, they run upon the wall, they climb up into the houses; they enter in at the windows like a thief. Before them the earth quaketh, the heavens tremble; the sun and the moon are become black, and the stars withdraw their shining. And the LORD uttereth His voice before His army; for His camp is very great, for he is mighty that executeth His word; for great is the day of the LORD and very terrible; and who can abide it?[/quote]

The Day of the Lord happens, which brings judgement to Spritiual Babylon - and the use of hourses and horsemen should remind each of you of the four horsemen of the Apocolpyse.

[quote name='"Joel 2:12-17' date=' JPS"']Yet even now, saith the LORD, turn ye unto Me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with lamentation; And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God; for He is gracious and compassionate, long-suffering, and abundant in mercy, and repenteth Him of the evil. Who knoweth whether He will not turn and repent, and leave a blessing behind Him, even a meal-offering and a drink- offering unto the LORD your God? Blow the horn in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly; Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that smell of elderberries the breasts; let the bridegroom go forth from his chamber, and the bride out of her pavilion. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say: 'Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not Thy heritage to reproach, that the nations should make them a byword: wherefore should they say among the peoples: Where is their God?'[/quote]

Israel repents of her sins, and comes back to God. This can only be done through acceptance of God's son, Jesus Christ. Right now, to enter into the land called Israel, you have to denounce the Christ.

[quote name='"Joel 2:18-27' date=' JPS"']Then was the LORD jealous for His land, and had pity on His people. And the LORD answered and said unto His people: 'Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith; and I will no more make you a reproach among the nations; But I will remove far off from you the northern one, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the eastern sea, and his hinder part toward the western sea; that his foulness may come up, and his ill savour may come up, because he hath done great things.' Fear not, O land, be glad and rejoice; for the LORD hath done great things. Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field; for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth its fruit, the fig-tree and the vine do yield their strength. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God; for He giveth you the former rain in just measure, and He causeth to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, at the first. And the floors shall be full of corn, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the canker-worm, and the caterpiller, and the palmer- worm, My great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and shall praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you; and My people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and there is none else; and My people shall never be ashamed.[/quote]

God restores Israel.

[quote name='"Joel 2:28-32' date=' JPS"']And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions; And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as the LORD hath said, and among the remnant those whom the LORD shall call.[/quote]

And then God gives out the latterday rain, judgement passes on the earth, and those whom God shall call will be saved.

So, you have the Catholic church who says -

Pentecost.
Fall of Jersuelem or Rome
the birth of the nation of Israel
and final judgement

or God saying -

The fall of spiritual babylon.
The Jewish Nation repenting of their lives and sins.
The renewl of the nation of Israel.
The latter day outpouring.
And finally
the final judgement.

Whose version of history should I trust, the Roman Catholics or the Bibles?

[Apotheoun]

I do not accept any of the Reformation interpretations of the Old Testament (or the New) concerning the eschaton. Thus, we read the same Bible, but we understand it differently.

Sadly, you follow the tradition of men created over the course of the last four centuries, while I follow the immemorial teaching of the Catholic Church (both East and West), which was founded by Christ the Lord Himself.

That said, you have not proven that your spurious interpretations of scripture are accurate; instead, you have simply posted longer quotations of scripture.

By what authority do you establish the symbolic interpretations of the texts that you have quoted?

P.S. - Most of the eschatological teachings that you espouse date from the late 19th century.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1282350' date='May 27 2007, 08:07 PM']I know that the Eastern and Western Orthodox churches claim to be direct from the Apostles. Claiming, and actually following apostolic doctrine is something different - IMHO.[/quote]

C'mon, GC - yer smarter that this. Please don't join the Church of Budgianity. Use yer head. The very fact that no other church even claims Apostolic Succession and/or the following of Apostolic doctrine points to a self-admission by these faith communities that they do NOT have that authority or teaching.

Follow me here...this is very condensed and very simplified, but if you open your mind and your heart and do not read with prejudgement, you can follow the logic/reason here:

1. Christ created ONE church and only one church. Search yourself on His words in the Bible. NEVER does he mention churches (plural). Ever.
2. Christ also promised that the gates of hell shall never prevail over His church. In other words, it is still here, still alive, and still visible to the world.
3. Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect His Church. In other words, the teachings He gave the the Apostles will remain in force and will be passed down to all subsequent generations of the church.

From this, we can reason a number of things:
1. His Church still exists and follows and teaches His teaching, passed down through the Apostles to present day. (#1 #2 #3)
2. Any church that denies apostolic succession is not the church established by Christ. (#2 and #3)
3. Any church that embraces teachings other than those of the Apostles (pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, Indian-trib included) is not the church He founded. (#1 and #3)
4. Any church started by a man or woman after Christ is NOT His church. (#1)
5. Any church who is NOT the one church established by Jesus Christ teaches with the authority of man, not of Christ. (#3)

So back to my statement: of all Christian denominations (for lack of a better word), only 2 (two, dos, zwei, deux) even CLAIM to have Apostolic Succession and cling to Apostolic authority. The other 33k do not claim this and reject it. Therefore they, by their own admission, are NOT the true Church, as established by Christ. ALL of these other 33k churches were begun by men/women. By reason, only one or both of these 2 churches claiming Apostolic Succession could possibly be the true Church.


As a preemptive strike, let me head you off on your upcoming assertion that the Catholic Church did not exist until 300 AD or so...just ain't true.
1. In the book of Acts, Luke describes the events at Pentecost. After Peter's homily/sermon/preaching, "over 3000 souls were added that day." Added to what? The Church of course.
2. In a manuscript dating to the year 100AD (less than 70 years after Christ and 10 years after the death of St. John), Justin Martyr describes the Sunday worship ceremony of Christians to the Roman Emperor. If you read it, you will see that what he describes matches exactly the pattern the Catholic Church still follows today in the Mass.
3. In a manuscript dated to 107AD, one of the earliest Church Fathers (cannot remember which one at the moment - supposed to be doing my ebiz homework ) uses the name 'Catholic' to describe the one holy church descended from the Apostles.
4. There were no breaks with the Catholic Church until the 1050s, when the Orthodox broke relations with the Pope. All Christians took the title Catholic. Even then, the Orthodox retained Apostolic Succession and the full validity of all 7 sacraments (start another thread if you wanna discuss the number of sacraments instituted by Christ) (the heretical movements do not count as breaks since they have been quashed and rejected even to this day)
5. No other breaks came until the Protestant Reformation with Luther, Knox, and Calvin discarding 1500 years of Apostolic teaching and substituting their own.

Honestly, to deny the Catholic Church as the true Church is to say that Jesus lied about founding one church, He lied that the Holy Spirit would guide the church, and he lied that the gates of hell would not overcome it. To deny this truth is to say that for 1500 years, everything the Apostles taught was a lie. It is to say that Jesus goofed and decided after 1500+ years to fix it in a series of private revelations to 33k people. It is to say that even then Christ and the Holy Spirit have extreme multiple-personality-disorder since the 33k cannot even agree amongst themselves as to doctrine and interpretation.

GC - even if you reject all the above, let me give you three things to honestly ponder in your heart:
1. only 2 Christian Churches claim to have authority from Christ through His most holy Apostles. The rest deny and reject this. They therefore cannot have authority beyond that of man.
2. only 2 Christian Churches claim being founded by Christ himself upon His Apostles. The rest must admit, and do so historically, that they are founded by men/women. They CANNOT be the true Church
3. only 2 Christian Churches have doctrine/teachings that do not change over time. The teachings of Christ are eternal and cannot/do not change. The teachings of the Catholic Church are the same today as they were 2000 years ago. Our understanding of Christ's revealed Truth may change in light of the times, but the doctrine does not change.

I leave you with a question, if I may: what church/denomination/faith tradition do YOU think/feel is the true Church?

Walk in Christ my brother...

[Anastasia13]

Most people here are already going to say the Catholic Church.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Light and Truth

[Apotheoun]

Light and Truth,

I have not argued at all for the correctness of any particular position; instead, I have asked GodChaser to support his own claims, which he appears incapable of doing.

God bless,
Todd

[Budge]

[quote]. Please don't join the Church of Budgianity. Use yer head. The very fact that no other church even claims Apostolic Succession and/or the following of Apostolic doctrine points to a self-admission by these faith communities that they do NOT have that authority or teaching.[/quote]

One thing I want the Catholics to know here, is when any church leaders, I MEAN [b]ANY[/b] claim to be SUCCESSORS TO THE APOSTLES, I am out of there.

That includes ALL OF THESE GUYS...

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic[/url]

If Apostolic is in the name, Im not showing up.

2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Budge

[Budge]

Oh by the way, any church that claims to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH...

aint!

{that includes not only Catholic but SDA etc}

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

[Budge]

sorry double post

Edited May 28, 2007 by Budge