Pope Restoring Vatican's Muslim Office

[kenrockthefirst]

[i]Pope Restoring Vatican's Muslim Office

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: May 29, 2007

Filed at 12:21 p.m. ET

VATICAN CITY (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI plans to restore a Vatican office that specializes in relations with Muslims a year after he was criticized for disbanding it.

The Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, said in an interview in an Italian newspaper that the Pontifical Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue would be made a separate office and no longer merged with the Vatican's cultural office.

He said the move shows the importance the Vatican attaches to dialogue with other religions.

Vatican officials said Tuesday it was not known when the actual decision would be announced or whether English Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald -- considered a top Islamic expert -- would be brought back from his current post as papal envoy in Egypt.

When Benedict announced in early 2006 he was transferring Fitzgerald and merging his office with the Vatican's office for culture, some analysts worried that the Vatican would be left without a resident expert in Muslim affairs at a critical time.

Church relations with Muslims were badly strained after a speech by Benedict in Germany in September that linked Islam to violence. Benedict said he regretted that Muslims were offended by his remarks.

In November, the German-born pope made what was considered a successful visit to predominantly Muslim Turkey. [b]During the trip, the pope prayed alongside a Muslim clergyman while visiting a mosque.[/b][/i]

[emphasis added]

The Church is absolutely correct to open and maintain channels of communication with other religions. Does Budge have a point, however, about taking dialogue too far? Would the head imam or whomever from Turkey pray alongside the Pope in St. Peter's? While on the one hand, we want to say, "we respect you as human beings and fully recognize your freedom of conscience," on the other hand, shouldn't we also say, "while we recognize your right to believe what you want, we believe that we have the full revelation of Truth and don't want to condone or even appear to condone some kind of equivalence between what you believe with what we believe?"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1283426' date='May 29 2007, 11:01 AM'][. . .] Does Budge have a point, however, about taking dialogue too far?[/quote]
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283439' date='May 29 2007, 12:18 PM']Even a broken clock is right twice a day.[/quote]

True that.

[chelsea]

I think it is VERY important that B16 restores the Vatican's connection to Islam. I also think that it was very symbolic of him to pray in a mosque. We all have the same God (although some faiths dont agree). I think i recall JPII praying in a mosque as well. I think it is very humble of the Holy Father.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Very important to point out that while Papa Ben DID pray in a mosque, he did NOT unfurl a prayer mat, prostrate himself, and face Mecca whilst doing it.

Just 'cause he prays in a mosque does not mean he is worshiping the Muslim idea of God. I pray in the shower, but I am most certainly NOT worshiping the Almighty Loofah...

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283439' date='May 29 2007, 12:18 PM']Even a broken clock is right twice a day.[/quote]


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1283471' date='May 29 2007, 01:31 PM']True that.[/quote]

So do I infer agreement with Budge's assertion that one can go too far in the name of dialogue?


[quote name='chelsea' post='1283559' date='May 29 2007, 03:00 PM']I think it is VERY important that B16 restores the Vatican's connection to Islam. I also think that it was very symbolic of him to pray in a mosque. We all have the same God (although some faiths dont agree). I think i recall JPII praying in a mosque as well. I think it is very humble of the Holy Father.[/quote]

Yes and no. While Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are "Abrahamic" religions, there are essential differences: in short, Christianity is the fulfillment of the the promises made to Israel, Christ is the fulfillment and end of the law. Islam does not regard Jesus as the Son of God, as God, and therefore is fundamentally flawed. Islam adds nothing to the revelation of God in Christ, and detracts much. So while all human beings must be respected as having been created in the image of God, and freedom of conscience upheld, it is an error to suggest equivalence between Christianity and any other religion on that basis.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1283559' date='May 29 2007, 03:00 PM']I think it is VERY important that B16 restores the Vatican's connection to Islam. I also think that it was very symbolic of him to pray in a mosque. We all have the same God (although some faiths dont agree). I think i recall JPII praying in a mosque as well. I think it is very humble of the Holy Father.[/quote]

The Christians and the Mohammadans do not adore the same God.

The Christians adore the true God who is one God in three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The Mohammadans do not adore the Son and the Holy Ghost, and therefore do not adore the Father.

[quote][b]Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, St. John - Chapter V:[/b]
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but hath given all judgment to the Son. 23 That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. [u]He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.[/u] 24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life. 25 Amen, amen I say unto you, that the hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live.
[url="http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=5&l=23&f=s#x"]http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk...;l=23&f=s#x[/url][/quote]

[quote][b]Douay-Rheims Catholic bible, II St. John - Chapter I:[/b]
7 For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that you lose not the things which you have wrought: but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever revolteth, and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.[/quote]

[kujo]

My buddy and I walked to our local burrito shop the other day. Before we ate, we crossed ourselves, asked God to bless us, our food, and all our brothers and sisters in Christ. After we were done, we chowed down on some hardcore spicy burritoes!

Does the fact that I prayed in the burrito shop disrespect God because the religion of the owner may be different than mine?

Edited May 29, 2007 by kujo

[prose]

I don't know what to think about this...

On one hand, prayer can be done anywhere... On the other hand, it [i]does[/i] give the impression that we believe that we worship the same God. It is like praying in a Hindu temple. We don't believe that religion, but it certainly could be cause for scandal.

We are even reccomended not to attend services of other Christian faiths, and yet we are praying in non-christian worship places??

Seems wrong.

[chelsea]

[quote name='prose' post='1283668' date='May 29 2007, 07:50 PM']We are even reccomended not to attend services of other Christian faiths, and yet we are praying in non-christian worship places??

Seems wrong.[/quote]

see, i've always been told to go ahead and go to other services if i'm curious. As long as I dont recieve communion, and i make my sunday obligation to the Catholic mass, there isnt a problem with it. Priests have told me that.

I wasnt aware that this was discouraged.
I mean, I dont go galavanting around protestant services. I just didnt know it was wrong.

[prose]

I don't think it is "wrong" per se. I just know that I have heard people say not to go to services of other Christian faiths.

[mortify]

Personally I think it's confusing. The Pope was on the right track in the beginning, he needs to stay on the course of Truth no matter what the criticism is.


Edit add: We're always trying to appease some group of people, we should concern ourselves with pleasing God and preserving our own religion. I don't see other groups trying to appease the Catholic Church. Who cares what the Muslims think, we don't need to apologize for speaking truthfully about their religion. I see absolutely no benefit in going to pray among them, other than bolstering their confidence that their religion was created to dominate over others...

I'm about to go into a rant so i'll stop myself now.

Edited May 30, 2007 by mortify

[Guest T-Bone]

How would you all feel about our Holy Father praying in a synagogue?

[mortify]

dude, read mortalium animos

[Apotheoun]

I think that dialogue is overrated, and that it would be far better to try and convert Muslims to Christianity.

As far as the Pope's praying with infidels is concerned, this kind of activity will cause problems with the Eastern Orthodox, who see it as a form of theological indifferentism.

[Jaime]

Seriously folks, this is in no way shape or form an act of appeasement to muslims or any group.

[chelsea]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1283743' date='May 29 2007, 09:07 PM']How would you all feel about our Holy Father praying in a synagogue?[/quote]


is there a reason he shouldnt?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1283426' date='May 29 2007, 11:01 AM']He said the move shows the importance the Vatican attaches to dialogue with other religions.[/quote] Dialog is acceptable, but I don't recall St. Athansius ever attempting to "pray" with Arians in order for dialog to occur, infact I don't recall those at Nicea ever attempting to even give the Arians an attempt at dialog.

[quote]Church relations with Muslims were badly strained after a speech by Benedict in Germany in September that linked Islam to violence. Benedict said he regretted that Muslims were offended by his remarks.[/quote]It's important that he admits that he made a mistake, that's very much seen as an outreach to Muslims. His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, after Pope Benedict's comments, said, "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ"

[quote]In November, the German-born pope made what was considered a successful visit to predominantly Muslim Turkey. [b]During the trip, the pope prayed alongside a Muslim clergyman while visiting a mosque.[/b][/i][/quote] This is a very contraversal situation, because praying with them, could be taken as accepting a theology, that both Muslims and Christians serve the same God, or view God similarly. His Holiness Pope St. Kyrillos VI wasn't known to pray with Muslims but to pray for them. He'd also made it a tradition of inviting Muslims to the Christmas celebrations in Egypt, in which the President of Egypt regularly attended. I don't recall him ever going to a mosque to pray thou, rather he invited them to our churches instead.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' post='1283570' date='May 29 2007, 02:17 PM']Very important to point out that while Papa Ben DID pray in a mosque, he did NOT unfurl a prayer mat, prostrate himself, and face Mecca whilst doing it.[/quote] Do we know the specifics of his prayers and what actions were taken in the mosque? Was it ever detailed?

[quote]Just 'cause he prays in a mosque does not mean he is worshiping the Muslim idea of God.[/quote]It's not even nessessarily the situation of "where he prayed", as we're instructed as Christians to pray everywhere that we roam, but it's the situation of praying with a Muslim cleric, in a mosque [with possibly everything else that goes with it, which we don't know much more details regarding].


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1283574' date='May 29 2007, 02:20 PM']
The Christians and the Mohammadans do not adore the same God.[/quote] There's no such thing as "Mohammadans", and in regards to Muslims, that's like calling a black man a Ni**ar, it's very slanderous and just doesn't make sense.

[code]The Christians adore the true God who is one God in three Divine Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Muslims aren't that much different then Christians thou, Islam began as a sect of Christianity, not unlike Protestantism, so it should be viewed as such.[/code]

[code]The Mohammadans do not adore the Son and the Holy Ghost, and therefore do not adore the Father.[/code]
You're incorperating Christian theology and applying it to Muslims, sorry but no cigar. Jews also don't adore Jesus Christ, does that mean that they don't adore the father?

[quote name='mortify' post='1283728' date='May 29 2007, 05:54 PM']Personally I think it's confusing. The Pope was on the right track in the beginning, he needs to stay on the course of Truth no matter what the criticism is.[/quote] Let me get this straight, you're saying that he was on the right path, by insulting Muslims and offending them to the point that it caused physical harm to other Christians and generally speaking hurt the ministry of Christians ministering to Muslims worldwide?

[code]Who cares what the Muslims think, we don't need to apologize for speaking truthfully about their religion.[/code] Well it's the truth as you see it, but most people wouldn't agree with you. It's also very important to care what Muslims think, as it's our responsiblity to not alienate them more then we have in the past, but to embrace them and bring them into the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's a very selfish attitude to suggest otherwise, and to quote His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ"

Back when I was a Muslim, it was individuals like Pope Shenouda III that brought me closer to Jesus Christ and those that had the attitude of "who cares what Muslims think", that brought me further from Jesus Christ.

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1283743' date='May 29 2007, 06:07 PM']How would you all feel about our Holy Father praying in a synagogue?[/quote]

Good question


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283756' date='May 29 2007, 06:31 PM']I think that dialogue is overrated, and that it would be far better to try and convert Muslims to Christianity.[/quote] What if the dialog was but a single step towards coverting them? Perhaps you should research the Zaballeen that live in Garbage City, Egypt? Here's a video about it: [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6900938085921020443&q=Zaballeen"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...amp;q=Zaballeen[/url] Notice that the Priest didn't simply offend Muslims with the attitude of, "oh well, if I offend them" but rather used honey to get more bees not vinigar.

[code]As far as the Pope's praying with infidels is concerned, this kind of activity will cause problems with the Eastern Orthodox, who see it as a form of theological indifferentism.[/code]


No it wont, rather it will have the opposite affect.

[quote name='chelsea' post='1283932' date='May 29 2007, 08:30 PM']is there a reason he shouldnt?[/quote]

Another great question.

[mortify]

[quote]Seriously folks, this is in no way shape or form an act of appeasement to muslims or any group.[/quote]C'mon hot stuff, you mean the Pope's visit to Turkey after the Regensberg "scandal" wasn't a means of appeasing Muslims? All the talk about him supporting Turkey in the EU (which he never did in the past) and saying Islam is peaceful and praying with Muslims at a mosque... nothing do with appeasment?

[quote]Let me get this straight, you're saying that he was on the right path, by insulting Muslims and offending them to the point that it caused physical harm to other Christians and generally speaking hurt the ministry of Christians ministering to Muslims worldwide?[/quote]

Reza, he *quoted* the opinion of a Byzantine Emperor. Is that all it takes to offend the Islamic world? Take a look at some of these responses and ask yourself whether the Byzantine Emperor the Pope quoted was right:

[color="#FF0000"]"We tell the worshipper of the cross (the Pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya,"

"We shall break the cross and spill the wine. ... God will (help) Muslims to conquer Rome. ... God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen,"[/color]

From: [url="http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/17/pope.islam/index.html?section=cnn_world"]http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/17...ction=cnn_world[/url]


Reza, why aren't you more troubled with these statements? Aren't you troubled that we can't even engage Islam intellectually, in the mode of academic dialogue, without Muslims threatening to kill us?

The Muslim response only proves the point.

[quote]Well it's the truth as you see it, but most people wouldn't agree with you. It's also very important to care what Muslims think, as it's our responsiblity to not alienate them more then we have in the past, but to embrace them and bring them into the knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's a very selfish attitude to suggest otherwise, and to quote His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, "any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ"[/quote]I can't think of anything more embracing than modern civilization. It seems everyone is capable of assimilating except the Muslims. We've done our part, we have classes that teach apologetic versions of Islam, we have ecumenical dialogues, with have Priests teaching the laity Islam is a peaceful religion. Honestly Reza, it's time to see some steps made by Muslims. When will the Saudis allow us to build Churches? When will a Muslim Leader venerate the Holy Sacrament? When will they start hosting ecumenical dialogues?

We have a right to demand recipricocity.

[quote]Back when I was a Muslim, it was individuals like Pope Shenouda III that brought me closer to Jesus Christ and those that had the attitude of "who cares what Muslims think", that brought me further from Jesus Christ.[/quote]

So you're a murtad as well? I'm glad you accepted Christ, God willing without much harm. One Copt's witness to the Gospel played a big part in my conversion, the first time I saw the Holy Spirit work through someone. But anyway, yielding to the whims of Muslims is not a means of evangelization. Backing down only puffs up their pride, makes them feel we are weak and unable to stand up to them. Courage in confronting the problems intellectually is the appropriate way of evangelizing, even amidst the difficulties and threats, it only proves we are right.

Edited May 30, 2007 by mortify

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1283994' date='May 29 2007, 08:58 PM']You're incorperating Christian theology and applying it to Muslims, sorry but no cigar. Jews also don't adore Jesus Christ, does that mean that they don't adore the father?[/quote]
That's because Christian theology (i.e., the revelation of God in Christ) is the truth, while Islam is a false religion. Muhammad is not a prophet. Moreover, the ancient canons of the Church forbid praying with heretics, infidels, and pagans. That said, a Christian can certainly pray [b]for[/b] a Muslim (i.e., that he be released from the false religion of Muhammad), but there is no way for a Christian to pray [b]with[/b] a Muslim, because all Christian prayer is made to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Holy Spirit.

Christian prayer is not directed to a "generic" or "abstract" God. In other words, Christians do not worship an abstract concept; instead, we worship the tri-hypostatic God.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1283994' date='May 29 2007, 08:58 PM'][quote name='Apotheoun' post='1283756' date='May 29 2007, 06:31 PM']As far as the Pope's praying with infidels is concerned, this kind of activity will cause problems with the Eastern Orthodox, who see it as a form of theological indifferentism.[/quote]
No it wont, rather it will have the opposite affect.[/quote]
Missionary activity is the real answer, instead of acting as if Muhammad is prophet and Islam is a true religion. Islam explicitly denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity, and there is no middle ground between the truth and falsehood. As St. John said: "No one who denies the Son has the Father. [But] he who confesses the Son has the Father also." [1 John 2:23]

Moreover, theological indifferentism is an obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and I say this as one who has many Eastern Orthodox friends -- all of whom are scandalized by the actions of the last two Popes in praying with infidels. I am also a contributor at Eastern Orthodox blog, and I attend Church on a fairly regular basis at two different Eastern Orthodox parishes near my home.