Pope Restoring Vatican's Muslim Office

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1284451' date='May 30 2007, 03:09 PM']I have to say the article CatholicCid put forward was very informative. Mortify, Don't kid yourself. The west has been very violent in the past. We can easily start with our interior struggles, such as the inquisitions (though I know there is less violence that happened there than many people let on... especially protestants. Btw this was a pretty political matter in itself), and the list goes on... now, on the other hand, Islam is pretty much a religion of force. I haven't realised until recently how much we're putting into this "dialogue' and how much they're not. Why can't people just show some respect. My opinion is, that we should just hang back for a while and just be charitable, but not go actively dialoguing. In this world which everyone treats like a game, we should end our turn now and let the others make their move.[/quote]

But here's the point: you have to go back to The Inquisition as an example of Catholic violence, 400-500 years ago, or to the Crusades, almost 1,000 years. When was the last suicide attack? This afternoon?

[chelsea]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1284457' date='May 30 2007, 05:19 PM']But here's the point: you have to go back to The Inquisition as an example of Catholic violence, 400-500 years ago, or to the Crusades, almost 1,000 years. When was the last suicide attack? This afternoon?[/quote]

You cannot characterize a religion by the few people who do such things. While yes, there are Muslims who are violent and carry on these attacks, the entire Islamic faith isnt like that.

[mortify]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1284513' date='May 30 2007, 04:37 PM']You cannot characterize a religion by the few people who do such things. While yes, there are Muslims who are violent and carry on these attacks, the entire Islamic faith isnt like that.[/quote]

Chelsea, the unfortunate reality is that Islam is intrinsically violent. Muslims who act out in violence only do so because their religion teaches that violence is a legitimate means of spreading religion.


[quote]Mortify, Don't kid yourself. The west has been very violent in the past.[/quote]

Sacred Music Man, I'm talking about the present. The West is the most tolerant and accepting place in the world.

[jeffpugh]

I appologise, Mortify. I see your point now. Furthermore, I must reiterate my compliance with your point that Islam is fundamentally aggressive. I'm still waiting for them to comply with our "dialogue".

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1284182' date='May 30 2007, 07:16 AM']The difference is, the Jews are a Covenant people, and Judaism the root from which Christianity grew. Islam, on the other hand, is man-made religion, and as someone on this board put it, essentially a heresy of Christianity because it denies the divinity of Jesus.[/quote]

Actually much of Judaism is also manmade, research the Talmud and you'll find that out.


[quote name='mortify' post='1284366' date='May 30 2007, 11:08 AM']Chelsea, the first problem is that Muslims are not reciprocal in what they desire from us. Do you suppose the Hagia Sophia will be restored as a Church? Will Saudis allow the building of Churches, or will other Arab nations permit reconstruction of old churches? How do you expect Muslims to allow us to pray in Mosques when they view our faith as a cancer that must be rooted out. We can't project our view of the world onto everyone else.[/quote] This largely has to do with politics and culture, not Islam. As you might know, the Saudi gov. is unlike most Islamic gov. as is it's ideology of Islam.

[quote]I think there is a certain indifferentism underlying all of this, and that's the bigger problem. A Church is sacred space because of the presence of our Lord, I'm not sure false ritual should be allowed there, though a non-Christian could visit. It would be interesting if anyone familiar with Canon Law could comment on this.
[/quote]I'd definately agree with you, the church isn't the place for inter-faith prayers. That's almost as bad as giving non-Christians communion.


[quote name='mortify' post='1284381' date='May 30 2007, 11:28 AM']
Chelsea, because we've already take the first steps with a religion that is intrinsically intolerant.[/quote] See that's the problem, I don't think that the Roman Pope sees the religion the same way that you do.

[quote]We were the one's initiate ecumenism, I've had priests tell me Islam is peaceful and that Catholicism is violent, the West as a whole is a very open and tolerant society.[/quote]The west has gone through reformations that eventually Islam might grasp onto, but the west still has a great history of vioelence according to the average Muslim in the middle east. I mean the bullets being fired at them in Palestine are American financed and often times American made, same in Iraq. Muslims see that in a much greater light.

[quote]It's time for Muslims to step up, but it wont happen, and do you know why? Because it would mean losing their faith. Islam is a religion that is meant to dominate over others (Surah 48:28), not play on an equal playing field with a religion (Christianity) it supposedly succeeds.[/quote] Mort, I'm going to ask you a question: Why do you keep saying that Islam is a violent religion, and misquote Qur'anic text, despite being set straight by numoerus people on this thread [such as Catholic Annonymous] over and over again? Surah 48:28 has nothing to do with violence as you're insisting. Even moreso, the Quran has a context that you obviously don't understand.

Muslims have been engaging in peace for a very long time, and currently still are doing so... if Muslims hated the Roman Pope, he wouldn't even be able to visit turkey, Egypt, etc. If Muslims truely are violent as you insist, the Pope would never be able to engage in dialog with the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is currently happening between the Roman Catholic Church and the Coptic Church in Egypt.


[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1284451' date='May 30 2007, 02:09 PM']I have to say the article CatholicCid put forward was very informative.[/quote] It was a great article for dialog wasn't it?

[quote]Mortify, Don't kid yourself. The west has been very violent in the past.[/quote]Can I get an amen?

We can easily start with our interior struggles, such as the inquisitions (though I know there is less violence that happened there than many people let on... especially protestants. Btw this was a pretty political matter in itself), and the list goes on...[/quote] It's important to not clump every "Christian" together, as Muslims do and not clump every Muslim together as Christians do. The KKK proclaims to be "Christians", but are they the Roman Catholic Church's responsiblity? Do they speak for the Roman Catholic Church? Are their violent acts a representation of the Roman Catholic Church and Christianity? Then why do we use the Saudi Gov.'s ideology [that is often had it's problems] and say, "that's true Islam"? Just as the KKK have no bearing on Christianity as a whole, the Saudi Gov. Ideology has no bearing on the average Muslim. Notice that the Saudi Gov, disagrees with the Iranian gov and the Iranian gov disagrees with the Palestinian gov., etc. on Ideology.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1284457' date='May 30 2007, 02:19 PM']But here's the point: you have to go back to The Inquisition as an example of Catholic violence, 400-500 years ago, or to the Crusades, almost 1,000 years. When was the last suicide attack? This afternoon?[/quote] That doesn't matter, if the Roman Catholic Church was under attack in this very moment, you can't honestly tell me that people wouldn't take the crusades again, and partake in violence. Muslims in the middle east, see the war in Iraq, etc. as an attack on Islam, therefore some of them fight as such. I think it's more intelligent to notice the vast amount of Muslims that haven't taken to violence, despite feeling that the west is attacking Islam. During the Roman Catholic Crusades, it wasn't just a few crusaders, but a mass amount of them, but in Iraq, the majority [thou disagree with the US occupation and see it as an attack on Islam] aren't taking to suicide attacks, etc.


[quote name='chelsea' post='1284513' date='May 30 2007, 03:37 PM']You cannot characterize a religion by the few people who do such things. While yes, there are Muslims who are violent and carry on these attacks, the entire Islamic faith isnt like that.[/quote]

Point taken! Roman Catholics don't want it's religion judged upon the crusades and child molesting priests, but rather the doctrines of their church, so should Islam be judged according to it's doctrines.


[quote name='mortify' post='1284527' date='May 30 2007, 03:56 PM']Chelsea, the unfortunate reality is that Islam is intrinsically violent. Muslims who act out in violence only do so because their religion teaches that violence is a legitimate means of spreading religion.
Sacred Music Man, I'm talking about the present. The West is the most tolerant and accepting place in the world.[/quote]

No mortify, that's your interpretation and over stereotype. Rather then sitting her claiming this, why don't you open a new thread on the Qur'an and prove everyone wrong? Since you seem to claim to know their religion so well, seriously open a thread and let's debate it, Surah for Surah. Man, I'll start it for you.

Reza

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1284513' date='May 30 2007, 04:37 PM']You cannot characterize a religion by the few people who do such things. While yes, there are Muslims who are violent and carry on these attacks, the entire Islamic faith isnt like that.[/quote]

Yes, that's what the conventional wisdom says. But where are the "moderate" Muslims denouncing the use of suicide attacks? Why is it that the Saudi flag features two crossed swords?


[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284644' date='May 30 2007, 07:20 PM']Actually much of Judaism is also manmade, research the Talmud and you'll find that out.[/quote]

Yes, you're right, [i]modern[/i] Judaism is man-made. For the purpose of clarity, I meant Old Covenant Judaism.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1284648' date='May 30 2007, 07:26 PM']That doesn't matter, if the Roman Catholic Church was under attack in this very moment, you can't honestly tell me that people wouldn't take the crusades again, and partake in violence. Muslims in the middle east, see the war in Iraq, etc. as an attack on Islam, therefore some of them fight as such. I think it's more intelligent to notice the vast amount of Muslims that haven't taken to violence, despite feeling that the west is attacking Islam. During the Roman Catholic Crusades, it wasn't just a few crusaders, but a mass amount of them, but in Iraq, the majority [thou disagree with the US occupation and see it as an attack on Islam] aren't taking to suicide attacks, etc.[/quote]

The Catholic Church isn't under attack? How about Nigeria, or China, or Iraq, or the Palestinian territories, or any majority Muslim country for that matter?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1285755' date='Jun 1 2007, 07:23 AM']Yes, that's what the conventional wisdom says. But where are the "moderate" Muslims denouncing the use of suicide attacks? Why is it that the Saudi flag features two crossed swords?[/quote]

There are a vast amount of moderate Muslims denouncing the suicide attacks, they just don't get that much media coverage in our countries. Are you aware of FreeMuslims.org? What about the Harper Colins Author Asma Hasan [www.asmahasan.com]? You should read Asma's book, "the American Muslims" and particularly "Why I Am A Muslim", her history goes back further then Gangas Khan and she gives a very historical and clear perspective of the religion, and a bit of her own history of being raised in a Roman Catholic Private School. What about the Grammy Award Winning Islamic Pop Artist Ani [www.a-n-i.net]?

[quote]Yes, you're right, [i]modern[/i] Judaism is man-made. For the purpose of clarity, I meant Old Covenant Judaism.
The Catholic Church isn't under attack? How about Nigeria, or China, or Iraq, or the Palestinian territories, or any majority Muslim country for that matter?[/quote]

That's the thing, there isn't any Jews that follow the Old Covenant pre-council of Jamnia, etc. Even the most Orthodox of Jews today follow the Talmud, which came after Jesus's Crucifixion/Resurrection.

In regards to the Roman Catholic Church being under attack, I wouldn't nessessarily call that "under attack", and for clerification, in Palestine it's the Secular Jewish Country that's oppressing the Church, Hamas even used their forces to prevent the Christian Churches from being burnt by Fateh a year or so ago.

Reza

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1283932' date='May 29 2007, 08:30 PM']is there a reason he shouldnt?[/quote]

My point exactly.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1286049' date='Jun 1 2007, 05:41 PM']In regards to the Roman Catholic Church being under attack, I wouldn't nessessarily call that "under attack", and for clerification, in Palestine it's the Secular Jewish Country that's oppressing the Church, Hamas even used their forces to prevent the Christian Churches from being burnt by Fateh a year or so ago.

Reza[/quote]

For clarification, how would the China situation with the Catholic Church not classify as being 'under attack'? One would think that would be a prime example of the Church being under attack today.

Were not the forces used to prevent Christian churches from being burned partially there to prevent other Muslim groups from burning churches? I might be thinking of a different situation. I remember reading about local Muslims who kept vigils outside guarding churches after the rash of firebombings due to the misrepresentation of the Pope's comments in his speech regarding Islam and violence.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1286173' date='Jun 1 2007, 08:11 PM']For clarification, how would the China situation with the Catholic Church not classify as being 'under attack'? One would think that would be a prime example of the Church being under attack today.[/quote] That might be a better example, but it's not a religious war, so much as a political war and it's not under attack in the same sense as how Muslims see Islam under attack, as China is suppressing not just Roman Catholics but Orthodox, Protestants, and I think Muslims too.

[quote]Were not the forces used to prevent Christian churches from being burned partially there to prevent other Muslim groups from burning churches? I might be thinking of a different situation.[/quote]Fateh has some Muslims in it, but it's not a Muslim organization, as Mahmoud Abbas isn't a Muslim.

[quote]I remember reading about local Muslims who kept vigils outside guarding churches after the rash of firebombings due to the misrepresentation of the Pope's comments in his speech regarding Islam and violence.[/quote]

I wouldn't doubt it. I believe that the Roman Pope's words were greatly misinterpreted to a great degree, and that he isn't perfect, so he didn't appear to be perfect in light of those attempting to slay him in the world.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1286182' date='Jun 1 2007, 09:17 PM']That might be a better example, but it's not a religious war, so much as a political war and it's not under attack in the same sense as how Muslims see Islam under attack, as China is suppressing not just Roman Catholics but Orthodox, Protestants, and I think Muslims too.

[color="#FF0000"]I'm afraid I don't understand the difference. Could you explain what you mean by 'how Muslims see Islam under attack'? Would it be like how all religions, excluding Islam, are 'under attack' in Saudi Arabia?[/color]

Fateh has some Muslims in it, but it's not a Muslim organization, as Mahmoud Abbas isn't a Muslim.
I wouldn't doubt it. I believe that the Roman Pope's words were greatly misinterpreted to a great degree, and that he isn't perfect, so he didn't appear to be perfect in light of those attempting to slay him in the world.[/quote]
Yes, then I'm thinking of something else.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote]I'm afraid I don't understand the difference. Could you explain what you mean by 'how Muslims see Islam under attack'? Would it be like how all religions, excluding Islam, are 'under attack' in Saudi Arabia?[/quote] It's quite different because Saudi Arabia is Muslim land, and they are outward about their agenda. In the situation of Iraq thou, it's primarily Muslim land being occupied by, what most Iraqis see as, a Christian Nation. Therefore it's Islam VS Christianity. Sadly thou, this is just the tip of the Ice Burg, compared to the situation in Palestine. Palestinians see Isreal as a Secular Nation supported by the United States, a Christian Nation. Palestinians know that Isreal is getting their funding [which results in their oppression] from the United States.

Therefore, when little 6 year old Palestinian boys are shot dead, it's seen as Christianity/Jewdaism killing Muslims [VS Islam]. Most people don't see the whole picture, in which Palestinians are assaulted. Maysoon Zayid is one of my favorite stand up commedians, and she has cerebral palsy, she's from the Gaza Strip, Palestine. She makes it a point to go back for 3 months out of the year. Once upon going through a checkpoint, because she is Palestinian she was detained, she was strip searched, and was on her period [sorry for the vulgarity]. After being searched, because of her disability [she was even in a wheel chair], she couldn't get herself dressed and the guards [some women] wouldn't help her get dressed, even worse, they confinscated her maxi-pad and wouldn't give her another, they also wouldn't let her go buy more and wouldn't let her have her bag that had more. They forced her to get on the plain, in a wheelchair bleeding all over herself for the sake of humiliation. As bad as that sounds, some Muslim women go through that frequently. Now some Muslim women are very sensetive about their modesty, but after having their dignity and honor stripped from them like this, image what they are feeling in their heads? Imagine what a father is feelinig after his daughter has to go through this? Probably ain't very "loving" if you know what I mean, and I don't blame them for wanting to kill each and everyone of those bastards.

Now it's sad because alot of Muslims see Christianity as doing this, and that's sad because I know that Christianity isn't doing that, that politics are doing it. It's situations like those that cause Muslims to seek guidence and amnesty from groups like Hezbollah. People want to talk about oppression, this is the worst form of oppression, and it's sickening.

Reza

[CatholicCid]

I still don't get how it would be different. As you said, it seems to not be 'a religious war, so much as a political war', and what you just said seemed more political to me.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1286416' date='Jun 1 2007, 10:23 PM']I still don't get how it would be different. As you said, it seems to not be 'a religious war, so much as a political war', and what you just said seemed more political to me.[/quote]

It is a political war but when things like this happen to Muslims it turns into a war on Islam to some degree.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1286441' date='Jun 2 2007, 12:37 AM']It is a political war but when things like this happen to Muslims it turns into a war on Islam to some degree.[/quote]

So, they are not 'under attack' in the actual sense, but prefer to look at that they are? Kind of a rose-tinted glasses point of view then.
Why do you think they would do this though?

Edited June 2, 2007 by CatholicCid

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='CatholicCid' post='1286456' date='Jun 2 2007, 12:58 AM']So, they are not 'under attack' in the actual sense, but prefer to look at that they are? Kind of a rose-tinted glasses point of view then.
Why do you think they would do this though?[/quote]

Personally, no I don't think Islam is under attack but it's politics. I don't think that every Muslim that believes this is a war on Islam nessessarily "prefers" to see it like this, they just do because it appears that way to them. This is kinda getting into anthropology now but I definately think that has to do with it. The mentality between the East and in the West in terms of a way of thinking is quite different, and alot of these Muslims that believe and percieve this as a war on Islam, don't have access to the internet and television, so it's based upon what is seen right infront of them.

Reza