"mother" Mary

[heshmafluff]

lol thanks!

So, she's Jesus' mom. If Jesus is the Son of God who is perfect anyways, and, receiving knowledge from the Father is able to engage religious scholars in highly intellectual debate by the age of 12, why does his Mom have to be perfect? Moral perfection is not a requirement for diaper changing.

And since when is it the Will of God that she be perfect? Is there a scripture for either of those? if so, let me know, I just still don't see the point of it all.

On a seperate note, my NIV bible translates that passage in Luke differently...I checked the other gospels and found no parrellel verses. Knowing that I probably missed something (I shouldn't really be doing this at 11:40 pm), are there other scriptures to back it up?

If you were wondering, my bible translates it as [quote]The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."[/quote]

[T-Bone _]

[quote]"Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."[/quote]

Nobody in the history of the world has ever talked like this...

[kateri05]

[quote]Moral perfection is not a requirement for diaper changing.[/quote]


i'll let the more qualified respond to your other comments, but as a mom-to-be i just wanted to um, remind you, that motherhood is FAR more than changing diapers. ask your mother!

this is the woman to whom God entrusted the full humanity of His Son, to raise and guide and teach and LOVE Him into being the Man that He became. she was not a Jesus-producing machine, but rather Christ's introduction, with Joseph, into full humanity. she bore Him WITHIN her, she nursed Him at her breast, she shared her physical self (literally, her DNA) with God. motherhood is one of the most intimate human relationships and who you mother is and how she raises you shapes you into the person that you become. sure, Jesus is God, but HE "emptied Himself to share in our humanity," and by doing so, He took on the "human way" of existence, which means that your parents help to shape and nurture you both physically and spiritually as you grow. He entrusted Himself to this woman, literally, to make sure that He both lived and grew and that is no small task.

so please, although i assume you were just being flippant, please realize the great respect that Mary, simply as the Mother of God, and truly, all mothers, is due, as infinitely more than mere diaper changers. forget, for a moment the other Marian beliefs, and focus on this one, that she is God's mother. the Mother of God, and all that entails, as i attempted to reflect on above. what an incredible responsibility. what a gift!

from there, i think, it's not an illogical extension to think about all that God would do to prepare her to take on such an awesome role in His plan for the salvation of the world.

Edited July 7, 2007 by kateri05

[kujo]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1316100' date='Jul 7 2007, 12:40 AM']So, she's Jesus' mom. If Jesus is the Son of God who is perfect anyways, and, receiving knowledge from the Father is able to engage religious scholars in highly intellectual debate by the age of 12, why does his Mom have to be perfect? Moral perfection is not a requirement for diaper changing.

And since when is it the Will of God that she be perfect? Is there a scripture for either of those? if so, let me know, I just still don't see the point of it all.[/quote]

I like to think that my mother's impact on my development extends a bit beyond merely changing my diapers and powdering my backside...

My mother, in her limited human capacity, has guided me throughout all of my life in a vast amount of areas; however, most important was her faithfullness to Our Lord and her desire to instill within me the sense of pride to be a Catholic. From a young age, she lovingly-pushed me towards the Lord, encouraging me to be an altar boy, a lector, a "Gospel actor" (my parish occasionally had the kids re-enact the Gospel at the Children's Mass), and, later, as a music minister. In many ways, though I came into [b]true[/b] faith in my own time, my mother was and still remains a focal point of my journey towards our Lord.

And I'm just some hairy-Catholic dude! How much greater love did Jesus deserve, as an Infant, as a Toddler, as an Adolescent? Mary was born without the stain of original sin on her soul so that she would be able to properly-predisposed to rear Perfection. It is not an issue of whether or not her free will was [i]limited[/i], for Jesus, who is without sin, can do ALL things, yet He freely-chooses to abide by the will of His Father (remember that scene in the Garden? "Not as I will, but Thine be done"). In the same way, Mary [i]freely chooses[/i] Christ, in the most perfect, innocent, pure sense, unencumbered by the temptation to reject Him. Again, it's not that she [i]couldn't[/i] refuse Him; rather, it is that it would go against her nature--indeed, [b]ALL OF OUR NATURE[/b]--to do anything but what Jesus instructs us. Again, recall the wedding feast at Cana, where Mary instructs the waiters to "do whatever He tells you."

[quote]On a seperate note, my NIV bible translates that passage in Luke differently...I checked the other gospels and found no parrellel verses. Knowing that I probably missed something (I shouldn't really be doing this at 11:40 pm), are there other scriptures to back it up?

If you were wondering, my bible translates it as[/quote]

Oh how the different abominations....oops....I mean [i]translations[/i] of the Most Holy Word of God have been abused and maimed throughout the centuries. That was undoubtedly changed to directly attack the Marian doctrines of Catholicism.

Pay it no mind...

Edited July 7, 2007 by kujo

[heshmafluff]

To begin, an apology, regarding the comment by kateri05 (i'll let the more qualified respond to your other comments, but as a mom-to-be i just wanted to um, remind you, that motherhood is FAR more than changing diapers. ask your mother! )...I do know that being a mother is more than just changing diapers, after all my mom has put up with me for more than 18 years. I was overexadurating to prove a point, unfortunately I underexadurated motherhood (which one should never do) and I apologize for it.

Also, I see your point with the motherhood aspect. I had not thought of it that way before, and it bears thinking about.

Now, in response to the earlier comments by Sacred Music Man and Socrates; I talked to a friend of mine who, whenever he has a question about anything biblical, he researches it from as many aspects and perspectives as he can, and he talks to biblical scholars, and to our pastor, and as such is rather knowledgeable about many scriptural things.
He says [quote]Hail is a common term of special acknowledgement, and favoured means simply favoured (to bear the Savior) not "unique."[/quote]

Thats the way I first saw it, and it is what makes sense to me. As for the NIV translation...someone is fired.

As for original sin, I am still not sure I understand it entirely. Original sin, being sin that we are born with that is not our fault, means that we have a tendancy to sin, correct?

Edited July 8, 2007 by heshmafluff

[jeffpugh]

That's pretty close to what original sin is, I think. At least, that is somewhat how I understand it. It's inherited, and it causes us to want to sin. Also, there is a lack of grace to fully take in God. That is why the sacraments are a must for heaven: the cleaner we are from personal sins and original sin, the more we can fully enjoy God because we are not filled with a desire for self (pride I guess?). Anywho, that's my two cents.

[Socrates]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1316048' date='Jul 6 2007, 10:26 PM']I am going to have to ask the potentially fatal (for me) question...

Why?

Why does mary get to be perfect? what purpose is there behind her being perfect, when redemption, righteosness, forgivness, and all that rest on Jesus? what is the point in her perfection?[/quote]
Because Mary was literally the mother of God, who would bear the Savior in her womb ("blessed is the fruit of thy womb"). Mary was more than just a caretaker of Jesus. The Mother of God, the Christ-bearer must be free of all sin.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp"]Here's a good article with quotes from the Early Church Fathers regarding Mary's immaculate nature.[/url]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1317287' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:37 PM']To begin, an apology, regarding the comment by kateri05 (i'll let the more qualified respond to your other comments, but as a mom-to-be i just wanted to um, remind you, that motherhood is FAR more than changing diapers. ask your mother! )...I do know that being a mother is more than just changing diapers, after all my mom has put up with me for more than 18 years. I was overexadurating to prove a point, unfortunately I underexadurated motherhood (which one should never do) and I apologize for it.

Also, I see your point with the motherhood aspect. I had not thought of it that way before, and it bears thinking about.

Now, in response to the earlier comments by Sacred Music Man and Socrates; I talked to a friend of mine who, whenever he has a question about anything biblical, he researches it from as many aspects and perspectives as he can, and he talks to biblical scholars, and to our pastor, and as such is rather knowledgeable about many scriptural things.
He says

Thats the way I first saw it, and it is what makes sense to me. As for the NIV translation...someone is fired.

As for original sin, I am still not sure I understand it entirely. Original sin, being sin that we are born with that is not our fault, means that we have a tendancy to sin, correct?[/quote]
Original sin is the sin inherited from Adam, by which we are all destined to hell without the saving action of Christ bestowed on us through Baptism. It is more than just an inclination towards actual sin, though that is a symptom.

Regarding Biblical translations, [url="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/luke-128-full-of-grace-immaculate.html"]here's an interesting blog on the topic[/url].

Edited July 8, 2007 by Socrates

[jeffpugh]

Finally, a reply! Thanks for the input, Socrates.

[heshmafluff]

[quote]Because Mary was literally the mother of God, who would bear the Savior in her womb ("blessed is the fruit of thy womb"). Mary was more than just a caretaker of Jesus. The Mother of God, the Christ-bearer must be free of all sin.[/quote]

This still doesn't answer the "why" she must be free of all sin.

I'll add another question on to that one: If we are all destined to sin (as in your quote) why is Mary the exception?

Also in the Romans 5:12-21 quote, there is the line
[quote]...and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned...[/quote]

Why is mary the exception? Surely if the bible says "all" it means "all", doesn't it?

[heshmafluff]

Here is, perhaps, a better verse for explanation:

[quote]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 3 : 23[/quote]

[T-Bone _]

Even an infant?

What about Noah?

Gen 6:9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

And did not Enoch "walk with God?"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1318178' date='Jul 8 2007, 09:10 AM']This still doesn't answer the "why" she must be free of all sin.

I'll add another question on to that one: If we are all destined to sin (as in your quote) why is Mary the exception?

Also in the Romans 5:12-21 quote, there is the line
Why is mary the exception? Surely if the bible says "all" it means "all", doesn't it?[/quote]
Jesus was the God-man, getting His human nature from his mum. Since nothing impure can stand in the sight of God, and Mary carried Him for 9 months, she herself must have been free from sin herself. Its logical. The angel itself called her "full of grace", and the term used meant overflowing, filled to capacity.

[heshmafluff]

[quote]Even an infant?

What about Noah?

Gen 6:9 Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

And did not Enoch "walk with God?"[/quote]

For [u]ALL[/u] have sinned. I don't see much in the way of compromise there. Why should Mary be discluded? (Is discluded a word?)

And as for impurity in the sight of God, Jesus is fully God and he walked this earth for many years. Many people were in his sight who were impure. Why does Mary have to be pure if no one else does?

Is there a direct scripture reference about Mary's perfection anywhere in the bible? If not, I am ready to agree to disagree, because I don't see any logical arguement towards her alleged perfection.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1319112' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:51 PM']For [u]ALL[/u] have sinned. I don't see much in the way of compromise there. Why should Mary be discluded? (Is discluded a word?)

And as for impurity in the sight of God, Jesus is fully God and he walked this earth for many years. Many people were in his sight who were impure. Why does Mary have to be pure if no one else does?

Is there a direct scripture reference about Mary's perfection anywhere in the bible? If not, I am ready to agree to disagree, because I don't see any logical arguement towards her alleged perfection.[/quote]

"all" is a qualified term. Jesus certainly didn't sin. Noah was blameless. Enoch went straight to heaven. In general, "all" sin i.e. mankind in general, but God is perfectly free to make exceptions.
I will repeat this since you must have missed it:
Jesus was the God-man, getting His human nature from his mum. Since nothing impure can stand in the sight of God, and Mary carried Him for 9 months, she herself must have been free from sin herself.
Luke 1: 28 Hail Mary, FUll of grace, the Lord is with thee.
The angel itself called her "full of grace", and the term used meant overflowing, filled to capacity.

Its logical.

[heshmafluff]

The full passage of Romans 3:23 is "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Jesus therefore is not an exception, since he is God.

Noah - Genesis 9:20- "Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent."

Drunkness is a sin, is it not?

Of Enoch, there is not a large enough account of his life to tell if he sinned or not. Noah also walked with God, according to genesis 6:9. Walking with God does not mean someone is blameless.


To put a bit of a twist on things...why did God need to have a son who is perfect and blameless in every way save the world, when there was already a woman who was perfect and blameless in every way already there? Why is there two of them? I am of the opinion that there wasn't. That is the wonderful thing about belief...we can all have our own opinions (and we won't know who is right till after the point when we cease to care).