123 Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Throught out Catholic Christendom, Mary has been seen as a example for us to follow. I have studied countless works on the Immaculate Conception, Her Acesion, and her intercessorship. Mary's Immaculate Conception, as with most of her existance was an example of Christ's words: Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. -Matthew 5:48 We are all called to that verse, a life of suffering and sin, the hardship of yearning to be like our Father God. However, Mary's Immaculate heart was not one of nessessity or favortism, the sight of what we can be in the future. I will write more on this later, welcome to phatmass and please look for a Book by Scott Hahn called "Hail Holy Queen". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='heshmafluff' post='1320166' date='Jul 9 2007, 07:29 AM']The full passage of Romans 3:23 is "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Jesus therefore is not an exception, since he is God. Noah - Genesis 9:20- "Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent." Drunkness is a sin, is it not? Of Enoch, there is not a large enough account of his life to tell if he sinned or not. Noah also walked with God, according to genesis 6:9. Walking with God does not mean someone is blameless. To put a bit of a twist on things...why did God need to have a son who is perfect and blameless in every way save the world, when there was already a woman who was perfect and blameless in every way already there? Why is there two of them? I am of the opinion that there wasn't. That is the wonderful thing about belief...we can all have our own opinions (and we won't know who is right till after the point when we cease to care).[/quote] Jesus is also True Man, and therefore would be included in a literal definition of "all." Only Mary was the actual mother of God, so therefore she alone had to be free from all stain of sin. The reason Mary is perfect and blameless is so she can be the Christ-bearer (Theotokos), the Mother of God. Mary cannot herself save us though. She is not God. Only Christ, who is both God and man, can save us from sin. That is the primary purpose of the Incarnation of Christ - it wasn't simply to have a morally perfect, blameless man walking the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Gotta remember two things here, Hesh.. 1. Sin is the absence of God. Since Jesus is God and Mary was the Mother of God she had to be, by definition, free from sin. 2. God is not bound by law, by the Sacraments, by the Commandments, or anything else. Whatever we are bound by, whatever our nature or our proclivities, we must always remember this: let God be God. We cannot put boundaries of any kind on Him, nor attempt to put Him into a box, nor try to justify His actions/thoughts/will in human terms. When we attempt to do so, we invariably fall short. God created the entire cosmos out of nothing by an act of His divine will. He maintains it by His will. He knows intimately every miniscule part of it. He created the first two humans without blemish of sin. Why does it follow that he cannot then choose to later create a woman without the blemish of sin? That said, to quote Fr. Corapi: "She was good enough for God, therefore she is good enough for me and she is good enough for you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heshmafluff Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote]Jesus is also True Man, and therefore would be included in a literal definition of "all."[/quote] Jesus is also God, who is perfect, and so A) he can't sin B) he isn't about to be falling short of the glory of God [quote]Only Mary was the actual mother of God, so therefore she alone had to be free from all stain of sin.[/quote] Why does she have to be free from all stain of sin? [quote]As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." Luke 11:27-28[/quote] By the sounds of it being His mom is nothing special. That's the way that I see it, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this debate has gotten to the point where no one is going to change their minds on the subject. Am I right (about the changing minds thing)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='heshmafluff' post='1322717' date='Jul 10 2007, 11:21 AM']Jesus is also God, who is perfect, and so A) he can't sin B) he isn't about to be falling short of the glory of God[/quote] So He doesn't fit into the category of "all"? [quote]Why does she have to be free from all stain of sin?[/quote] The Son of God required a perfect vessel. [quote]By the sounds of it being His mom is nothing special. That's the way that I see it, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this debate has gotten to the point where no one is going to change their minds on the subject. Am I right (about the changing minds thing)?[/quote] You are right. This is a Catholic Dogma. We are not going to change. And you as much as admitted that you aren't as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heshmafluff Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 So then, agree to disagree. Just wondering, what ARE the Catholic beleifs about Mary? Her alleged perfection and her perpetual virginity are about the only ones I really know of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 There are four main Catholic dogmas regarding Mary that most protestants don't believe in. If I remember correctly, they are: Immaculate Conception Perpetual Virginity Assumption into Heaven Coronation as Queen of Heaven I'm not sure about the last one, I know we believe it, but I'm not sure if it's formal dogma. Also, many Catholics believe in Mary as Co-Redemptix, which I'm pretty sure isn't dogma, at least not yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heshmafluff Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 so, the immaculate conception is the sinlessness? Virginity and assumption are self explanatory... what is the coronation of queen of heaven about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Rev 12: 1-5: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven; an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Also.... more simply.......... Jesus is the King of Heaven, and Mary is the Queen Mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 (edited) [quote name='heshmafluff' post='1320166' date='Jul 9 2007, 07:29 AM']To put a bit of a twist on things...why did God need to have a son who is perfect and blameless in every way save the world, when there was already a woman who was perfect and blameless in every way already there? Why is there two of them? I am of the opinion that there wasn't. That is the wonderful thing about belief...we can all have our own opinions (and we won't know who is right till after the point when we cease to care).[/quote] I am not answering as deeply as some here, but I hope my posts help somewhat. Please someone correct me if I am wrong. Mary could not have saved the world because it was God who made her full of grace through the death of His son. Remember someone earlier had said that God worked outside of time? Mary still needed Jesus. However, God could not dwell and be formed in a sinful being. He needed a sinless vessel (of which he had filled with grace so as to achieve this). Interestingly, I was speaking to an Orthodox Catholic in one of my theology courses, and they believe (as he explained to me) that Mary was wiped of all sin when the angel Gabriel had addressed her. So that she had previously had sin, but when the angel said Full of Grace, all of her sins were dissolved. Same reason. A sinful vessel could not hold Christ. Edited July 10, 2007 by prose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Anyways, I do not understand the deep reasons about why Mary needed to be sinless, other than God preferring to be bore and raised by a sinless woman. I don't feel I need to know a lot more beyond that, because the Catholic Church says it's so and she knows and understands the deep reasons. I believe what the Church says, and have good reason to do so... but that's another thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heshmafluff Posted July 10, 2007 Author Share Posted July 10, 2007 so, why does the church beleive that she stayed a virgin? I mean, smells of elderberries to be Joseph... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prose Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Okay I would say that is a TOTALLY different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bone _ Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='heshmafluff' post='1322805' date='Jul 10 2007, 12:02 PM']I mean, smells of elderberries to be Joseph...[/quote] If you got to be God's step-father, wouldn't that one small sacrifice be worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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