Vatican's Chief Exorcist Repeats Condemnation Of Harry Potter Nove

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1330776' date='Jul 16 2007, 10:12 AM']Potter supporters are taking all this way too personal...[/quote]
It goes both ways.

Anyway, I do think that the books make a good distinction between bad and "good" magic. Voldemort only ever uses bad magic. Harry almost always only uses "good" magic, the only exceptions being when he is completely emotionally off-base, which, as we know, can and often does reduce moral culpability.

I think what is far more dangerous, and what Fr. Amorth is getting at, is that books such as Harry Potter may lead a person into an unhealthy interest about non-fictional magic. Satan can use HP, just like he can use anything, even the sacraments (such as Eucharistic sacrilige), for evil, when he is dealing with someone who is not well-formed or who has malicious intentions. Even reading the legends of King Arthur and his dealings with Merlin can make a person want to delve into magic. We consider those legends tame now, but back then, I would have advised parents to monitor their children in listening to such tales as well, because it was in their world, their time, it was fiction (historically inspired or not), but it was near to them. Likewise, Harry Potter can and does, I'm certain, lead some people to interest in looking into magic in our modern world, but 1000 years from now, I'm certain people will disbelieve it just as much as we disbelieve Merlin. So, as I said, I think the problem is more in the hearts and minds of those reading than it is in the books themselves (although, I admit, they aren't perfectly moral...they have flawed heroes...as does every tragedy, which I am certain this series is meant to be). I think people can read the books, so long as they know that, in reality, magic is evil, and are resolute not to practice it.

God bless,

Micah

[Pontifex]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1329718' date='Jul 15 2007, 03:52 PM']I don't think the books are harmless, but I also think it's a bit extreme to say that they have the mark of satan all over them. They have Christian themes in abundance, many Christian ideals, and they use a common literary form of "magic" known as "white magic." While Rev. Amorth is correct about all magic being evil in reality, I think that "white magic" is a common enough literary technique (Narnia, LOTR, not to mention innumerable fairy tales) that no one can very seriously consider HP an intrinsic threat. It can be harmful, though, depending on the situation of the reader...is the person old enough to know that all magic is evil, etc.?

I don't know. That's just my opinion. I find the plot to be excellent and I definitely know that, in reality, all magic is evil, but as a literary medium for the plot, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as long as the readers understand the truth. I would definitely advise parents to keep their youth from reading it unless they are well formed morally.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]


Regardless of anyone's opinion, when the chief excorist tells us to beware, we better beware!!!

Let us be humble and accept the Holy Spirit's wisdom through his office.

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote]To me, the difference between Lewis & Tolkien, and then Rowling, is that the Tolkien and Lewis were communicating Truth in its fullness, as seen from the Christian perspective. Rowling might have some good v. evil in her books, but I (talking about myself, when I watch it) don't see the "good" characters as that good. They're dark, they're witches/wizards, they don't really have a high goal that I'm aware of. And they all seem to have dark secrets. There's nothing light about them, no redemption.[/quote]

And also let's not forget that Tolkien and Lewis were two intense, religious and devout Christians and that they spoke of Christianity's hope and redeeming nature through their stories. Their works were sub-creations that touched upon the true myth of Christianity. And to agree, Harry Potter and the supposedly good characters in the books do not have that essential "high" goodness that is needed to battle or contrast the dark and evil characters. Harry and them do not make the best possible moral choices and that is a great flaw. Now, they are of course allowed to make bad moral choices but always with a redemption that follows those exact choices.

But it seems that Harry tends to make very clouded moral choices and then really receives no repercussion for them. He screams "I hate you!", and everyone around hims thinks it's fine for him to say that. He steals and does mischievous things. And it's perfectly fine. But in the Narnia and LOTR books, these cloudy moral choices had consequences.

These stories are very entertaining and if one chose to read them to their kids, then we need to point out that sometimes Harry does not make the best moral choices and that his practice of magic is borderline evil. And once that is out in the open, hopefully kids will enjoyed them at face value, which is good guys versus bad guys.

But to be honest, I have to say I still haven't found one great Christian message in the books other than they celebrate Christmas. Big whoop.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1330605' date='Jul 16 2007, 03:10 PM']It seems a little more serious than that. Why would she use [i]real[/i] Latin spells in the book if it wasn't about learning magic? She could have, like Tolkien, made up her own so that dangerous ground wouldn't be tread.[/quote]

She did make up her own. A few of them aren't even in genuine Latin. ('Riddikulus' is one such example.) Every spell in there is quite obviously fantastical.

I've yet to find any evidence to suggest that real Latin spells even exist. This same exorcist has told people that 'the devil fears Latin'. (This was quoted on Phatmass as support for the attendance of the Latin Mass.) If this statement is true, it is unlikely that anybody who dabbles in black magic would want to use the language. Only one of the Fr Gabriele's two opinions can be correct. Either the Latin 'spells' in Harry Potter smack of Satanism, or Latin is an intrinsically holy language that banishes demons.

You mentioned the films in your first post, Lauren. The films aren't really reflective of the books themselves. The books have a lot more humour in them and much less melodrama. The only way to know what these novels are like is to read them for yourself.

[quote]Rowling might have some good v. evil in her books, but I (talking about myself, when I watch it) don't see the "good" characters as that good. They're dark, they're witches/wizards, they don't really have a high goal that I'm aware of. And they all seem to have dark secrets. There's nothing light about them, no redemption.[/quote]

How are the good characters dark? On more than one occasion, Harry puts himself in danger to save his friends. In [i]The Prisoner of Azkaban[/i], he has mercy on the man who participated in his parents' murder and refuses to let him be killed. At the end of the sixth book, he forgives his long-term enemy, Malfoy - even though Malfoy has been the indirect cause of the death of his mentor and close friend, Dumbledore. When a despairing Harry asks Dumbledore how he can be expected to resist evil, Dumbledore responds, "You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!"

I could go on. To me there are many prominent Christian themes in the books. The classic fairytales of the Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Andersen are far more disturbing, but few people complain about those.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1330993' date='Jul 16 2007, 02:50 PM']She did make up her own. A few of them aren't even in genuine Latin. ('Riddikulus' is one such example.) Every spell in there is quite obviously fantastical.

I've yet to find any evidence to suggest that real Latin spells even exist. This same exorcist has told people that 'the devil fears Latin'. (This was quoted on Phatmass as support for the attendance of the Latin Mass.) If this statement is true, it is unlikely that anybody who dabbles in black magic would want to use the language. Only one of the Fr Gabriele's two opinions can be correct. Either the Latin 'spells' in Harry Potter smack of Satanism, or Latin is an intrinsically holy language that banishes demons.[/quote]

I might be misinformed on the Latin spells issue. It is from a credible Catholic source but I have not read the books or researched that myself so I could certainly be wrong.

[quote]You mentioned the films in your first post, Lauren. The films aren't really reflective of the books themselves. The books have a lot more humour in them and much less melodrama. The only way to know what these novels are like is to read them for yourself.
How are the good characters dark? On more than one occasion, Harry puts himself in danger to save his friends. In [i]The Prisoner of Azkaban[/i], he has mercy on the man who participated in his parents' murder and refuses to let him be killed. At the end of the sixth book, he forgives his long-term enemy, Malfoy - even though Malfoy has been the indirect cause of the death of his mentor and close friend, Dumbledore. When a despairing Harry asks Dumbledore how he can be expected to resist evil, Dumbledore responds, "You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!"

I could go on. To me there are many prominent Christian themes in the books. The classic fairytales of the Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Andersen are far more disturbing, but few people complain about those.[/quote]

My post was meant to compare the works of Lewis, Tolkien, and Rowling, as they appear on film - I have not read Rowling's books so it wasn't my intention to say "books" - I meant to say films All I know about the books is what I have heard from Catholic sources.

Like I said, there is good v. evil, and I am not discounting the fact that Harry performs virtuous acts. My point is: What is the higher goal of the wizards? What do they want to use all of this power for? The films to not seem to indicate what the purpose of their being in wizardry school is. Maybe the books do? Also, the situations the good wizards find themselves in is precarious to me at times. In one of the films, for example, I remember them being on a bus with a talking head (no body). That was just gross to me, but that kind of grossness is commonplace in the wizardry world of HP. Also the teachers in HP... they are never smiling, and they always seem to be depressed, hiding secrets. Also, Cinematography in films based on Lewis' and Tolkiens' works seems to always clearly define the surroundings of the good guys from those of the bad guys. Look at Lothlorien, the Shire, Narnia as the winter is ending, etc... always beautiful places for the good guys. Mordor and Isengard on the other hand are terribly dark and frightening. There always seems to be darkness in Harry Potter movies, even where the good guys live. One example is the stairways changing places in the first movie. That scares the kids. That Myrtle character that lives in the boys' bathroom is also very dark and irksome, and she wasn't one of the malicious characters. She was just a former student at the school. Yes, an educated and well-formed person can fish for the good stuff in HP. And maybe it's a lot more evident in the books.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1330776' date='Jul 16 2007, 10:12 AM']Tripe is something of no value. There'll never be a signed document by the Pope on the matter. We do have however statements by public with permission that the potter books are subtle seductions. Only Satan seduces...

Potter supporters are taking all this way too personal...[/quote]
I am not taking all this too personally at all. I simply respectfully disagree with you and Fr. Amorth. I don't believe either of you offers an infallible interpretation of Harry Potter, and I'm free to disagree, after having amply considered the evidence at hand.

Have you read the books, by chance?

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1331009' date='Jul 16 2007, 02:17 PM']I might be misinformed on the Latin spells issue. It is from a credible Catholic source but I have not read the books or researched that myself so I could certainly be wrong.
My post was meant to compare the works of Lewis, Tolkien, and Rowling, as they appear on film - I have not read Rowling's books so it wasn't my intention to say "books" - I meant to say films All I know about the books is what I have heard from Catholic sources.[/quote]
I'm truncating your post here so I don't end up with an uber-long post.

Lauren, I like and respect you, but basing your comparisons of Tolkien and Lewis against the movies is not fair. It makes your criticism ring hollow. And I think Cathoholic noted several good things, about the made-up spells, redemptive aspects of main characters, etc. I would encourage you to read the article I linked to earlier; I think it does a good job of explaining the Christian themes and symbolism you can see in the book. The author notes that Rowling uses many of the same symbols used by Tolkien and Lewis, and also notes the changes that occur to characters throughout each book, which are reminiscent of redemptive themes. I think there are many good things you can pull from the books even on a surface reading; you don't have to be well-educated and well-formed to fish for good messages from them.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1330837' date='Jul 16 2007, 11:03 AM']Regardless of anyone's opinion, when the chief excorist tells us to beware, we better beware!!!

Let us be humble and accept the Holy Spirit's wisdom through his office.[/quote]

That says it all Father...

[saint_wannabe]

i was just reading an article called [b]"Conversations with an exorcist..."[/b]

"A young girl he exorcised was into Harry Potter and Pokemon. He has exorcised many children who have become possessed through involvement in these. A priest told him that he read Harry Potter and found nothing wrong with it. The exorcist rebuked this ignorant priest, "But you guys don't do exorcisms!" "

[url="http://www.tldm.org/News9/ConversationsWithExorcist.htm"]http://www.tldm.org/News9/ConversationsWithExorcist.htm[/url] < go here to read the full article, its pretty interesting

Edited July 16, 2007 by saint_wannabe

[Sojourner]

Whelp, better get rid of the Lewis and Tolkien too, then.

[saint_wannabe]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1331089' date='Jul 16 2007, 03:55 PM']Whelp, better get rid of the Lewis and Tolkien too, then. [/quote]

lol
well i dnt think Tolkien and lewis are as bad cuz they dont completely focus on magic and wizardry. but w.e

[Sojourner]

Neither does HP. Have you read the books?

[Paladin D]

A chief exorcist warning the dangers of Harry Potter, especially through his own experiences. Definately something to take into consideration, since we have [b]NEVER[/b] witnessed or performed the amount of exorcisms as this man of God has. May God continue to protect him and give him the strength to do his duty.

If a culinary chef is telling you to not eat that because it's not fully cooked, YOU DO NOT EAT IT!


[b]Question:[/b] Is Rowling even a Christian? I know Tolkien was Catholic, and Lewis was Methodist (was Catholic friendly).

Edited July 16, 2007 by Paladin D

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1331089' date='Jul 16 2007, 03:55 PM']Whelp, better get rid of the Lewis and Tolkien too, then. [/quote]

Well if thats what it takes for kids to put down Potter books, its worth it. I would add to the list Yugioh, Brat Dolls, Hip Huggers for Preteens, short shorts with immoral words on the back end sold to preteens, Brat Baby Dolls!! and all the other satanic sexed up immoral carp that are sold to kids today.

Edited July 16, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Paladin D]

Everyone should convert to [b]Star Wars[/b]ism.

It isn't as lame as Harry Potter, LOTR, or Narnia anyway.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1331100' date='Jul 16 2007, 04:06 PM']A chief exorcist warning the dangers of Harry Potter, especially through his own experiences. Definately something to take into consideration, since we have [b]NEVER[/b] witnessed or performed the amount of exorcisms as this man of God has. May God continue to protect him and give him the strength to do his duty.

If a culinary chef is telling you to not eat that because it's not fully cooked, YOU DO NOT EAT IT!
[b]Question:[/b] Is Rowling even a Christian? I know Tolkien was Catholic, and Lewis was Methodist (was Catholic friendly).[/quote]
Like I said, I've considered his warnings, but after my own analysis and my own reading of the books and input from other sources, I respectfully disagree.

Admittedly, I have never witnessed an exorcism, but one horror tale about a kid who read Harry Potter and ended up possessed causes me no concern about the state of my soul -- and I've read all six books more than once. Especially since there are millions of people who have read the books and DON'T end up possessed or obsessively absorbed in witchcraft.

I bet the kid also brushed his teeth from time to time. Maybe that did him in. Correlation does not equal causation.

As far as her Christianity goes, there are arguments pro and con. Do a google search.


Frankly, people should be MORE concerned about "The Golden Compass," the first of the "His Dark Materials" series to hit the big screen (slated for release in December). Now THAT is a disturbing series.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1331119' date='Jul 16 2007, 06:19 PM']Like I said, I've considered his warnings, but after my own analysis and my own reading of the books and input from other sources, I respectfully disagree.

Admittedly, I have never witnessed an exorcism, but one horror tale about a kid who read Harry Potter and ended up possessed causes me no concern about the state of my soul -- and I've read all six books more than once. Especially since there are millions of people who have read the books and DON'T end up possessed or obsessively absorbed in witchcraft.

I bet the kid also brushed his teeth from time to time. Maybe that did him in. Correlation does not equal causation.

As far as her Christianity goes, there are arguments pro and con. Do a google search.
Frankly, people should be MORE concerned about "The Golden Compass," the first of the "His Dark Materials" series to hit the big screen (slated for release in December). Now THAT is a disturbing series.[/quote]

Don't know much about the Golden Compass.

I'm not condemning those who read Harry Potter, nor am I implying that you guys aren't taking it into consideration. However, I believe that it would be safe to avoid Harry Potter. That's just me, besides, I don't like that kid anyway. [b]STAR WARS IS FOREVER!!![/b]

Edited July 16, 2007 by Paladin D

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1331110' date='Jul 16 2007, 04:15 PM']Everyone should convert to [b]Star Wars[/b]ism.

It isn't as lame as Harry Potter, LOTR, or Narnia anyway. [/quote]
Actually, I find Star Wars much more disturbing, as far as philosophy goes.

At least all the others are, to a greater or lesser extent, all written from a Christian perspective. Star Wars leans more toward an Eastern (non-Christian) religious and philosophical foundation.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1331127' date='Jul 16 2007, 06:22 PM']Actually, I find Star Wars much more disturbing, as far as philosophy goes.

At least all the others are, to a greater or lesser extent, all written from a Christian perspective. Star Wars leans more toward an Eastern (non-Christian) religious and philosophical foundation.[/quote]

They actually talked about that on A&E's special about Star Wars and it's mythology. I'll have to watch it again, since I recorded it and only saw glimpses. Though from my understanding, the basic message is that it encourages the belief in a higher power or being. The "Force" can be interpreted as God, or as some other supernatural thing, it all depends what your religious view is. So in a way, it's not really exclusive to a specific religion, it's pretty broad and in general. However, I'll have to watch the 1 (or 2 hour) program again for sure.

Though we can make a new topic about Star Wars and the mythology to discuss this further.

[KnightofChrist]

Well... heres praying Fr. Amorth is wrong, and that Potter doesn't help lead millions of souls to hell.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1331148' date='Jul 16 2007, 04:36 PM']Well... heres praying Fr. Amorth is wrong, and that Potter doesn't help lead millions of souls to hell.[/quote]
Fr. Amorth said that Harry Potter is going to lead millions of souls into hell?