Moneybags Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 I am trying to help someone write a letter to a bishop due to the actions of a priest. Can my fellow members help me find sources. For background, here is what the priest is doing: [quote]Our priest made the following changes / omissions... 1. He changes the doxology to the statement... "For it is through Jesus Christ and with him and in along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit that we give all praise, glory, and honor... worship and adoration... at this celebration... and forever and ever" 2. He does not wash his hands and omits the prayer that is normally said during that gesture. 3. He does the first blessing over the blessed sacraments in a combined form... something like... "Blessed are you Lord God of all creation... through your goodness we have this bread AND wine to offer..." 4. He occaisionally cuts out the creed on our Sunday mass "for the sake of time". 5. He changed our Advent vestments, candles, and banners to blue rather than purple. 6. He tells highly inappropriate jokes instead of attempting to give a meaningful sermon. For example, he compared Jesus to the ground hog at Easter. A couple of weeks ago he told a joke about how Mary always appears solemn in pictures and statues because she had hoped to give birth to a girl.[/quote] Here is what I was asked: [quote]I have carefully gone through the GIRM and the Redemptionis Sacramentum. Can you tell me if it is okay to do the initial blessing over the gifts as one... such as..."Blessed are you Lord God of all creation, through your goodness we have this bread and wine to offer"? If this is not acceptable, can you give me evidence for my letter? Also, where can I find that the doxology must be said or sung specifically and not changed as our priest does?[/quote] She also asked: [quote]Shouldn't the priest consume the Body of Christ before the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion do? Our priest breaks the bread and then gives it to the EMHC's, most of whom consume it before the priest gets back to his. I usually hold mine and wait for him to consume his 1/4th of the larger piece.[/quote]
IrishSalesian Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 [quote name='St. Benedict' post='1360194' date='Aug 16 2007, 04:19 PM']I am trying to help someone write a letter to a bishop due to the actions of a priest. Can my fellow members help me find sources. For background, here is what the priest is doing: Here is what I was asked: She also asked:[/quote] If the letter is going to the bishop of the diocese or to the chancellor, then i would say you need not sources from other such cases, but rather letters from parishoners. The bishop will not look at cases outside of his diocese because it is not of his concern. Its all about what happens in his parishes. So I would keep it in the parish family until you have enought support to write the letter.
Thomist-in-Training Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 I think "St Benedict" meant sources from rubrics for why the priest's actions are not liturgically correct. FWIW, the offering of the bread and wine together, while not, I believe, correct, was a part of the Dominican Rite, which was relinquished by the Dominican Order in 1968. Our (Dominican) chaplain does this (single offering) also, even though he says Mass in the Roman Rite.
curtins Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 Is the priest in question the pastor? Also, as Irish mentioned, do you have support from other parishoners (not neccessary, but it helps- strength in numbers)
Lil Red Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 i strongly recommend she bring up these thing to the priest FIRST. often the bishop will ask if you've addressed the issues with the priest, and if you haven't, ask that you do so first.
Totus Tuus Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Thomist-in-Training' post='1360222' date='Aug 16 2007, 03:43 PM']FWIW, the offering of the bread and wine together, while not, I believe, correct, was a part of the Dominican Rite, which was relinquished by the Dominican Order in 1968. Our (Dominican) chaplain does this (single offering) also, even though he says Mass in the Roman Rite.[/quote] You're right; it is not correct. It does not invalidate the Mass however (it's kind of hard to invalidate a Mass - you have to omit "This is My Body" & "This is My Blood", or use improper matter, to do that). St. Benedict, If your friend went through the GIRM, they should have noticed what it DOES say to do. It says to do things separately, and gives the words to say. It doesn't need to say all the things you CAN'T do. You just do what it says to do. Edited August 16, 2007 by Totus Tuus
Moneybags Posted August 16, 2007 Author Posted August 16, 2007 You can read about this situation on Catholic Answers Forum. And, yes I need sources from the various Church documents on the errors mentioned in the first post. [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=176450"]http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=176450[/url]
Jaime Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1360232' date='Aug 16 2007, 03:54 PM']i strongly recommend she bring up these thing to the priest FIRST. often the bishop will ask if you've addressed the issues with the priest, and if you haven't, ask that you do so first.[/quote] Since you didn't read it the first time
StColette Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1360232' date='Aug 16 2007, 02:54 PM']i strongly recommend she bring up these thing to the priest FIRST. often the bishop will ask if you've addressed the issues with the priest, and if you haven't, ask that you do so first.[/quote] I strongly agree with Red, here. Some Bishops will dismiss letters about liturgical abuses if these things have not been brought to the Priest's attention.
curtins Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 yeah I agree bring it up with the priest, or at least the pastor (that is why I asked)
Jaime Posted August 16, 2007 Posted August 16, 2007 It is the only appropriate thing for an orthodox Catholic to do. Let's see if lil Bennie takes the advice
Moneybags Posted August 16, 2007 Author Posted August 16, 2007 She already spoke with the priest who refuses to listen. The next step is to contact her bishop.
Lil Red Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 well, you didn't say that in your original post, so it was hard to tell. good to know that she tried to talk to her priest first.
Moneybags Posted August 17, 2007 Author Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1361125' date='Aug 17 2007, 11:48 AM']well, you didn't say that in your original post, so it was hard to tell. good to know that she tried to talk to her priest first.[/quote] I really don't need to constantly explain myself here, though, anyway. I just asked for help and so far no one has helped me with the sources.
IrishSalesian Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 (edited) [quote name='St. Benedict' post='1361130' date='Aug 17 2007, 01:01 PM']I really don't need to constantly explain myself here, though, anyway. I just asked for help and so far no one has helped me with the sources.[/quote] Please be respectful, there is no need to snap. If you or going to be snappy, do the research yourself. All the reference you need is in the GIRM. Edited August 17, 2007 by IrishSalesian
Moneybags Posted August 17, 2007 Author Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1361138' date='Aug 17 2007, 12:19 PM']Please be respectful, there is no need to snap. If you or going to be snappy, do the research yourself. All the reference you need is in the GIRM.[/quote] Don't worry about it. Fish Eaters Forum is helping me.
Noel's angel Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 (edited) Everyone on this thread helped you as best they could, with the information you provided. You can't expect people to just assume things. If you don't like how people try to help here you can leave if you like. No one is forcing you to be here. Edited August 17, 2007 by Noel's angel
Jaime Posted August 17, 2007 Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='St. Benedict' post='1361255' date='Aug 17 2007, 04:04 PM']Don't worry about it. Fish Eaters Forum is helping me.[/quote] Schismatics are generally quite helpful in that area
Moneybags Posted August 18, 2007 Author Posted August 18, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1361285' date='Aug 17 2007, 04:41 PM']Schismatics are generally quite helpful in that area[/quote] So you are saying that all of Fish Eaters is schismatic???? You don't even know them! The site's creator has sent me money as a "gift to a seminarian". They have also volunteered to help me in many ways, and they always respond politely. I came here and I still need help finding sources from GIRM, etc. I didn't come here for a lecture on the need to talk with the pastor first. Talking with the pastor first hardly ever works. hot stuff, you are one of the rudest people that I have ever came across online. Learn to practice a little Christian virtue, please.
Jaime Posted August 18, 2007 Posted August 18, 2007 [quote]hot stuff, you are one of the rudest people that I have ever came across online. Learn to practice a little Christian virtue, please.[/quote] Talk to pholks around here son I give it to those who give it to others. You've given none in your time here. Not even on this thread. The proper action was to talk to the priest first. Always. When you were told this you got pissy. You aren't a priest yet. You aren't in sem. You aren't in pre-sem. You want me to teach you Christian virtue? Fine I'll be happy to. I promise you, if you don't learn it someday, you won't become a priest.
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