Liturgical Abuses

[StColette]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1360194' date='Aug 16 2007, 02:19 PM']2. He does not wash his hands and omits the prayer that is normally said during that gesture.[/quote]

GIRM 76. The priest then washes his hands at the side of the altar, a rite that is an expression of his desire for interior purification.

[quote]4. He occaisionally cuts out the creed on our Sunday mass "for the sake of time".[/quote]

The Profession of Faith

67. The purpose of the Symbolum or Profession of Faith, or Creed, is that the whole gathered people may respond to the word of God proclaimed in the readings taken from Sacred Scripture and explained in the homily and that they may also call to mind and confess the great mysteries of the faith by reciting the rule of faith in a formula approved for liturgical use, before these mysteries are celebrated in the Eucharist.

68. The Creed is to be sung or said by the priest together with the people on Sundays and Solemnities. It may be said also at particular celebrations of a more solemn character.

If it is sung, it is begun by the priest or, if this is appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir. It is sung, however, either by all together or by the people alternating with the choir.

If not sung, it is to be recited by all together or by two parts of the assembly responding one to the other.



[quote]5. He changed our Advent vestments, candles, and banners to blue rather than purple.[/quote]

Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani.

IGMR § 346

346. As to the color of sacred vestments, the traditional usage is to be retained: namely,

a. White is used in the Offices and Masses during the Easter and Christmas seasons; also on celebrations of the Lord other than of his Passion, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, of the Holy Angels, and of Saints who were not Martyrs; on the Solemnities of All Saints (November 1) and of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist (June 24); and on the Feasts of Saint John the Evangelist (December 27), of the Chair of Saint Peter (February 22), and of the Conversion of Saint Paul (January 25).
b. Red is used on Palm Sunday of the Lord's Passion and on Good Friday, on Pentecost Sunday, on celebrations of the Lord's Passion, on the feasts of the Apostles and Evangelists, and on celebrations of Martyr Saints.
c. Green is used in the Offices and Masses of Ordinary Time.
d. Violet or purple is used in Advent and of Lent. It may also be worn in Offices and Masses for the Dead (cf. below).
e. Besides violet, white or black vestments may be worn at funeral services and at other Offices and Masses for the Dead in the Dioceses of the United States of America.
f. Rose may be used, where it is the practice, on Gaudete Sunday (Third Sunday of Advent) and on Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent).
g. On more solemn days, sacred vestments may be used that are festive, that is, more precious, even if not of the color of the day.
h. Gold or silver colored vestments may be worn on more solemn occasions in the dioceses of the United States of America.

[quote]Shouldn't the priest consume the Body of Christ before the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion do? Our priest breaks the bread and then gives it to the EMHC's, most of whom consume it before the priest gets back to his. I usually hold mine and wait for him to consume his 1/4th of the larger piece.[/quote]

Communion

84. The priest prepares himself by a prayer, said quietly, that he may fruitfully receive Christ's Body and Blood. The faithful do the same, praying silently.

The priest next shows the faithful the Eucharistic Bread, holding it above the paten or above the chalice, and invites them to the banquet of Christ. Along with the faithful, he then makes an act of humility using the prescribed words taken from the Gospels.

85. It is most desirable that the faithful, just as the priest himself is bound to do, receive the Lord's Body from hosts consecrated at the same Mass and that, in the instances when it is permitted, they partake of the chalice (cf. below, no. 283), so that even by means of the signs Communion will stand out more clearly as a participation in the sacrifice actually being celebrated.73

86. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants' union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the "communitarian" nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful.74 If, however, there is to be a hymn after Communion, the Communion chant should be ended in a timely manner.


This is all I have to offer thus far. May take me a little time.

[Moneybags]

St. Colette, that is a huge help! Thank you

[StColette]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1361658' date='Aug 17 2007, 11:10 PM']St. Colette, that is a huge help! Thank you [/quote]

yw

[adt6247]

It's also a rule that if it's not mentioned in the ordinary of the mass, it ain't allowed. You can use omission as an argument. I don't have a copy of the Novus Ordo ordinary; I lent it out, as I hadn't needed it in a while. But I guarantee that most of the things you mentioned are simply deviations from the ordinary.

A book I'd recommend (I don't own it, but a friend does) is [url="http://www.amazon.com/Mass-Confusion-Catholic-Worship-Expanded/dp/1888992050/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2369402-7807344?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187442005&sr=8-1"]Mass Confusion[/url] by James Akin. I've used it before to bring a case against a priest. It's a list of common liturgical abuses, and things people think are liturgical abuses but aren't. It cites the GIRM, the Novus Ordo Missae, the code of cannon law, the catechism, etc.

[adt6247]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1361285' date='Aug 17 2007, 05:41 PM']Schismatics are generally quite helpful in that area[/quote]
Fisheaters contains a fair number of schismatics and sedes, but it also has some faithful young Catholics that are trying to discover church tradition that has been denied them since before their birth. It's quite rude to label all trads as schismatics, even those like myself and [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=542"]my betrothed[/url] that won't attend masses that are even remotely canonically questionable.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1361776' date='Aug 18 2007, 10:06 AM']Fisheaters contains a fair number of schismatics and sedes, but it also has some faithful young Catholics that are trying to discover church tradition that has been denied them since before their birth. It's quite rude to label all trads as schismatics, even those like myself and [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=542"]my betrothed[/url] that won't attend masses that are even remotely canonically questionable.[/quote]

Benny you are quite capable of looking up the GRIM yourself, you alwatys have myriads of sources at your fingertips.

ADT if you hang with people who are outside the Church and generally distainful of it, you will end up with that attitude and position as well.

Not all trads are schismatics, by all schismatics are trads.
Try not to be holier that the Pope....

[Jaime]

Well said Cmom

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1360194' date='Aug 16 2007, 01:19 PM']I am trying to help someone write a letter to a bishop due to the actions of a priest. Can my fellow members help me find sources. For background, here is what the priest is doing:

[. . .][/quote]
It is probably best to attend Mass at a different parish.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1361826' date='Aug 18 2007, 11:53 AM']...all schismatics are trads.[/quote]

Except for [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritus_Christi_sect"]these schismatics[/url]. And [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_National_Catholic_Church"]these schismatics[/url]. And [url="http://www.americanchurch.org/history.htm"]these schismatics. [/url]

Schismatics of any stripe are bad news, anyway. I honestly don't think ADT is trying to be more Catholic than the pope, since he says he "avoids masses that are even remotely canonically questionable." A very good thing

St Ben, if your friend is being spiritually crippled by these abuses, then by all means she should attend a different parish. But if it is just "bothers" him/her I would advise that they try to effect change in the parish before leaving. The jokes and the Creed part of what you mentioned are what would upset me enough to leave, the other things seem like they would be less horrifying.

The EWTN forums have experts who answer liturgical abuse questions, and they almost always cite the documents involved. Just for your future information, or if you need any more info...

Edited August 18, 2007 by Maggie

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[Norseman82]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1361776' date='Aug 18 2007, 09:06 AM']even those like myself and [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=542"]my betrothed[/url] that won't attend masses that are even remotely canonically questionable.[/quote]

I commend you for not being complacent, but just be sure that what you said does not become a reason to miss Mass.

[XIX]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1361826' date='Aug 18 2007, 09:53 AM']Benny you are quite capable of looking up the GRIM yourself, you alwatys have myriads of sources at your fingertips.

ADT if you hang with people who are outside the Church and generally distainful of it, you will end up with that attitude and position as well.

Not all trads are schismatics, by all schismatics are trads.
Try not to be holier that the Pope....[/quote]
Okay cool, but I'm pretty sure ADT doesn't qualify as being "holier than the Pope." I'm not really sure where you got that from, just because he posts at fisheaters gives you reason to suspect he is a schismatic? Because he labels himself as a "trad?" I can understand your concern, but try not to jump to conclusions about others.

(Ironically, I might have just jumped to a conclusion about you...but I think you understand my general point)

[Slappo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1361826' date='Aug 18 2007, 07:53 AM']Try not to be holier that the Pope....[/quote]

Sorry, off topic of post.

Dumb question maybe... but... why should anyone try to be less holy than is possible? Fr. Corapi says that we should be strive to be as holy as we can possibly be, and then he asks the rhetorical question "How holy can we be?" and answers it with "Well, how holy is Jesus Christ?". Should I not want to be as holy as Jesus Christ and our Blessed Mother? I would think that the Holy Father himself would want me to be holier than him if I could be. The litany of humility even prays that others may become holier than oneself as long as oneself becomes as holy as God calls him to be.

Like I said... maybe a dumb question? I don't think so...

[MIKolbe]

I could be wrong, but i think CMom engaged in a cliche'.

A cliche' is-

1. a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usually expressing a popular or common thought or idea.
2. (in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc.
3. anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse.
4. British Printing. a. a stereotype or electrotype plate.
b. a reproduction made in a like manner.

–adjective 5. trite; hackneyed; stereotyped; clichéd.


I did not find the use of this expression to be obtuse; but perhaps others did. But then, my powers in geometry far surpass normal men.

but then, like you said, maybe it was a dumb question.

[adt6247]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1361826' date='Aug 18 2007, 11:53 AM']ADT if you hang with people who are outside the Church and generally distainful of it, you will end up with that attitude and position as well.[/quote]
Really? Then maybe Phatmass should ban its schismatic members, and protestant members, and athiest members. It has more than a few.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1361826' date='Aug 18 2007, 11:53 AM']Not all trads are schismatics, [but] all schismatics are trads.[/quote]
What about the recently ordained 'bishopesses' and 'priestesses'? Have they not made the same schismatic act that SSPX did (only worse)? You have an incredibly low opinion of those who prefer the extraordinary form. Certainly a lower opinion than all popes in history!

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1361826' date='Aug 18 2007, 11:53 AM']Try not to be holier that the Pope....[/quote]
It would be rather difficult to be holier than our current pope, but there are certainly popes in the past that would not make that too much of a challenge. Stephen VII comes to mind... he exhumed the corpse of a his predecessor, and put it on "trial", found it guilty, and his corpse was burned and dragged into the river. I like to think that I'm living holier than this man did.

Regardless, we should strive for the maximum amount of Holiness. Again, I doubt I could ever approach any of our recent popes, but there should be no upper bound on holiness.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='cmom']Not all trads are schismatics, [but] all schismatics are trads.[/quote]

What?

[quote name='slappo']why should anyone try to be less holy than is possible? Fr. Corapi says that we should be strive to be as holy as we can possibly be, and then he asks the rhetorical question "How holy can we be?" and answers it with "Well, how holy is Jesus Christ?". Should I not want to be as holy as Jesus Christ and our Blessed Mother? I would think that the Holy Father himself would want me to be holier than him if I could be. The litany of humility even prays that others may become holier than oneself as long as oneself becomes as holy as God calls him to be.

Like I said... maybe a dumb question? I don't think so...[/quote]

I think when people refer to being "holier than the pope" they mean, try not to think you have more authority. I don't know how that particular cliche' evolved but it's not totally accurate for relaying the thoughts of the people who use it. I've used it before, and personally I am referring to authority, not holiness, when I say it.

Hooooowever, one is to revere Church authorities as "holy" because they are representatives of Jesus on earth. i.e., you would kiss the bishop's ring whether or not you thought he was a holy bishop, because by doing so you are honoring his position as representative of Christ, not the person of bishop so-and-so.

Just my .02

[quote name='adt6247']Really? Then maybe Phatmass should ban its schismatic members, and protestant members, and athiest members. It has more than a few.[/quote]

cmom said people who are "generally disdainful" of the Church. I think what she was trying to express (and she can correct this) is that if you hang out with people who are against the Church they are probably going to rub off on you.

Edited August 19, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[adt6247]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1362709' date='Aug 19 2007, 10:33 AM']It's only by the grace of God that you are.[/quote]
I think that goes without saying. One doesn't have to preface "only by the grace of God" before everything. I exist only by the grace of God. I eat only by the grace of God. I do the dishes only by the Grace of God.

My point is, the pope is not the limit of Holiness. Christ is, and his holiness is infinite.

[StColette]

Okay ... how about the topic switch back to Liturgical Abuses and away from yet another schismatic whatever you wanna call the topic that is going on

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1362711' date='Aug 19 2007, 09:35 AM']I think that goes without saying. One doesn't have to preface "only by the grace of God" before everything. I exist only by the grace of God. I eat only by the grace of God. I do the dishes only by the Grace of God.

My point is, the pope is not the limit of Holiness. Christ is, and his holiness is infinite.[/quote]

Yeah, I thought about that before I saw this post and thought "I'm sure he already knows that..." and deleted that

[quote]Okay ... how about the topic switch back to Liturgical Abuses and away from yet another schismatic whatever you wanna call the topic that is going on[/quote]

Yeah, you're right, sorry. I think we kind of wore out St. Benedict's question though... lol

Edited August 19, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[Moneybags]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1361826' date='Aug 18 2007, 10:53 AM'][b]Not all trads are schismatics, by all schismatics are trads. [/b]
Try not to be holier that the Pope....[/quote]

You have A LOT of learning left to do...