KnightofChrist Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1401648' date='Oct 13 2007, 09:06 AM']Again that is not what the Church teaches. I[b]nclinations or [u]desires[/u] are not intrinsically disordered only actions.[/b] The clarification is important From the Bishops Pastoral letter on Homosexuality[/quote] Saint Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart." Christ sees no difference between lusting after a woman with ones mind and actually lusting with her. It's no different for the homosexuals the desire for homosexuality is a disorder and sinful just so is acting it out.
Jaime Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1401657' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:52 AM']Saint Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart." Christ sees no difference between lusting after a woman with ones mind and actually lusting with her. It's no different for the homosexuals the desire for homosexuality is a disorder and sinful just so is acting it out.[/quote] If you folks want to continue to confuse intrinsically disordered with objectively disordered, I will continue to correct you with the teachings of the Church
KnightofChrist Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 It is not natural and goes against God for a man to sexuality desire men, and it is very sinful.
Apotheoun Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1401643' date='Oct 13 2007, 07:46 AM']Nope. Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered because the affections are going against natural order of male-female attraction. The inclination is not sinful, only the acts are, but the general nature of the attraction is disordered.[/quote] Cmom, You are correct. God bless, Todd
XIX Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Looks like Jamie is right: Here's the Catechism: [quote]Chastity and homosexuality 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, [b]tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[/b] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [b]This inclination, which is objectively disordered,[/b] constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.[/quote] Homosexual inclination = objective disorder Homosexual act = intrinsic disorder
cmotherofpirl Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='XIX' post='1401674' date='Oct 13 2007, 01:37 PM']Looks like Jamie is right: Here's the Catechism: Homosexual inclination = objective disorder Homosexual act = intrinsic disorder[/quote] Ok, I got the adjectives wrong, but BOTH are disordered.
cathoholic_anonymous Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1401229' date='Oct 12 2007, 05:37 PM']i wish people would start trying to defend the OT instead of denying it. perhaps then real debate can start.[/quote] No one here is denying the events of the Old Testament. You are making an unreasonable extrapolation: you are saying that just because there is a resurgence of this disease in gay men (even though the disease can and does affect all kinds of people) this means that it is a divine punishment [i]a la[/i] Sodom and Gomorrah. Let's remember that sodomy was only one of the sins that was going on regularly in those two cities, that they had already been called to repentance, and that God would have saved the entire population for the sake of ten righteous people (a minyan, the traditional number of people needed for communal prayers in the Jewish tradition]. It wasn't an arbitrary punishment that fell on homosexual people purely because of their homosexual acts. It was a just punishment that fell on unrepentant people because of their lack of repentance.
Jaime Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1401677' date='Oct 13 2007, 12:48 PM']Ok, I got the adjectives wrong, but BOTH are disordered.[/quote] The adjectives are extremely important
hyperdulia again Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1401643' date='Oct 13 2007, 09:46 AM']Nope. Homosexuality is intrinsically disordered because the affections are going against natural order of male-female attraction. The inclination is not sinful, only the acts are, but the general nature of the attraction is disordered.[/quote] *rings bell* she's right!
Jaime Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1401714' date='Oct 13 2007, 02:45 PM']*rings bell* she's right![/quote] you need a new bell
hyperdulia again Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Well, I'm a homosexual so my bell is inclined to ring inappropriately, so usually I just don't let it ring at all. A new bell might be appropriate, but I'd rather keep my faulty bell and not ring it. So there.
Jaime Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1401717' date='Oct 13 2007, 02:50 PM']Well, I'm a homosexual so my bell is inclined to ring inappropriately, so usually I just don't let it ring at all. A new bell might be appropriate, but I'd rather keep my faulty bell and not ring it. So there.[/quote] Well then I would think you would agree that there is a vast difference between objectively disordered desires and stating someone has intrinsically disordered desires. so there
hyperdulia again Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 Doesn't the Church use the phrase "intrinsically disordered" how is a disordered inclination intrinsic and not objective. I dunno..I just know I can't watch Brad Pitt movies.
Jaime Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1401724' date='Oct 13 2007, 02:56 PM']Doesn't the Church use the phrase "intrinsically disordered" how is a disordered inclination intrinsic and not objective. I dunno..I just know I can't watch Brad Pitt movies. [/quote] A desire is not intrinsically disordered. Please read the quotes prior from the bishop's pastoral letter on homosexuality and the Catechism. Then write a very long book about it
hyperdulia again Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 You really have to forgive me for the "heretic" thing I'd hate for us to not be able to be friends. I am very capable of deeply sinful resentments and irrational dislikes. I will read the Pastoral Letter you referenced.
Jaime Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1401733' date='Oct 13 2007, 03:02 PM']You really have to forgive me for the "heretic" thing I'd hate for us to not be able to be friends. I am very capable of deeply sinful resentments and irrational dislikes. I will read the Pastoral Letter you referenced.[/quote] I'm sorry too Hyper. The book comment was snarky And the brad pitt comment was funny!
premed_jakey Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 (edited) Let us not also forget what the Holy Father has to say. Yes, I realize that not all of these quotes may have been said when he was Pope, but he has always been a strong conservative and never afraid to let people know his conservative values with strong words. "Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered to an intrinsic moral evil, and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the church's pastors wherever it occurs... The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in work, in action and in law." Above all, we must have great respect for these people who also suffer and who want to find their own way of correct living. On the other hand, to create a legal form of a kind of homosexual marriage, in reality, does not help these people." "Nonetheless, according to the teaching of the Church, men and women with homosexual tendencies 'must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.' They are called, like other Christians, to live the virtue of chastity. The homosexual inclination is however 'objectively disordered' and homosexual practices are 'sins gravely contrary to chastity.' " . . I love my German Shepherd! Edited October 13, 2007 by Premed_Jakey
hyperdulia again Posted October 13, 2007 Posted October 13, 2007 [quote name='Premed_Jakey' post='1401765' date='Oct 13 2007, 04:18 PM']I love my German Shepherd![/quote]
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