Gay Cancer

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='XIX' post='1402113' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:25 PM']I'll re-visit this thread when Apo sites an authoritative church document.

Until then, go Red Sox.[/quote]
Clearly, like hot stuff you cannot read very well, because I already cited two different documents of the CDF earlier in this thread.

God bless,
Todd

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402114' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:30 AM']hot stuff,

I have read your posts in this thread and I have seen nothing in the documents of the Roman curia (i.e., [i]Persona Humana[/i] and [i]Homosexualitatis Problema[/i]) that supports your making a hard distinction between "objective" and "intrinsic." That said, if something is objectively disordered it is disordered per se, i.e., it is intrinsically or inherently disordered. I am saddened by your constant attempts to legitimize the homosexual condition as something normal.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]

Every quote provided showed the action to be intrinsically disordered while the desire to be objectively disordered. How you missed that, I cannot fathom

And I'm saddened at your assumption that I'm making the homosexual condition normal. You are grasping at straws.


I am stating things as they are. I am not blurring lines like you and others are attempting to do. Concise language is key. I wish you had more respect for that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402116' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:34 PM']Every quote provided showed the action to be intrinsically disordered while the desire to be objectively disordered. How you missed that, I cannot fathom

And I'm saddened at your assumption that I'm making the homosexual condition normal. You are grasping at straws.
I am stating things as they are. I am not blurring lines like you and others are attempting to do. Concise language is key. I wish you had more respect for that.[/quote]
As I tell my students, a quotation in and of itself does not prove a point, the burden of proof remains upon you to show that the Church explicitly holds that there is a difference between an "objective disorder" and an "intrinsic disorder," and so far you have not done that; instead, you have simply quoted various texts and then asserted that this proves your point, when in fact it does not.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

An objective disorder is a disorder [i]per se[/i], which means that it is inherent or intrinsic disorder. You have not proven that there is a difference in meaning between the two terms, which are in fact related. To put it another way, if something is objectively disordered it follows that there is something intrinsically wrong with it.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Apotheoun

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402117' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:39 AM']As I tell my students, a quotation in and of itself does not prove a point, the burden of proof remains upon you to show that the Church explicitly holds that there is a difference between an "objective disorder" and an "intrinsic disorder," and so far you have not done that; instead, you have simply quoted various texts and then asserted that this prove your point, when in fact it does not.[/quote]

And as I've told my Australian Shepherd just now, I have shown where the Church makes the distinction over and over again. The burden of proof is off my shoulders. You have yet to show besides your opinion that objective and intrinsic are interchangeable

because they are not

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402120' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:42 PM']And as I've told my Australian Shepherd just now, I have shown where the Church makes the distinction over and over again. The burden of proof is off my shoulders. You have yet to show besides your opinion that objective and intrinsic are interchangeable

because they are not[/quote]
No, you have not shown that. Which CDF document states that an objective disorder is not intrinsically or inherently frustrated in its proper end?

[Jaime]

By the way the Catholic Church continues to make the distinction with

desire to masturbate objectively disordered masturbate intrinsically disordered

Lust objectively disordered premarital sex intrinsically disordered



coincidence?

[Apotheoun]

The Catholic Church teaches that desires and acts of the will can be intrinsically disordered; and so, one may never ". . . make into the object of a positive act of the will something which is intrinsically disordered, and hence unworthy of the human person, even when the intention is to safeguard or promote individual, family or social well-being" [[i]Vademecum for Confessors[/i], no. 33]. On the other hand, the Church of hot stuff holds that disordered desires are either neutral or benign.

I will stand with the Catholic Church against the Church of hot stuff.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402126' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:50 PM']By the way the Catholic Church continues to make the distinction with

desire to masturbate objectively disordered masturbate intrinsically disordered

Lust objectively disordered premarital sex intrinsically disordered
coincidence?[/quote]
I have seen no evidence to support your interpretation of the terms involved in this debate.

[Jaime]

[quote]On the other hand, the Church of hot stuff holds that disordered desires are either neutral or benign.[/quote]

Really?

I said that?

Care to show me where?

Now you're just making stuff up

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402131' date='Oct 13 2007, 11:01 PM']Really?

I said that?

Care to show me where?

Now you're just making stuff up[/quote]
Well, you have said that some people are "homosexual," which means that you see that disordered condition as in some sense inherent to certain human beings.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402128' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:57 AM']The Catholic Church teaches that desires and acts of the will can be intrinsically disordered; and so, one may never ". . . make into the object of a positive act of the will something which is intrinsically disordered, and hence unworthy of the human person, even when the intention is to safeguard or promote individual, family or social well-being" [[i]Vademecum for Confessors[/i], no. 33]. On the other hand, the Church of hot stuff holds that disordered desires are either neutral or benign.

I will stand with the Catholic Church against the Church of hot stuff.[/quote]

Oh and let's look at the whole paragraph Todd

[quote]The Encyclical Humanae Vitae declares as illicit "every action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible". And it adds: "To justify conjugal acts made intentionally infecund, one cannot invoke as valid reasons the lesser evil, or the fact that such acts would constitute a whole together with the fecund acts already performed or to follow later, and hence would share in one and the same moral goodness. In truth, if it is sometimes licit to tolerate a lesser evil in order to avoid a greater evil or to promote a greater good, it is not licit, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil so that good may follow therefrom, that is, to make into the object of a positive act of the will something which is intrinsically disorder, and hence unworthy of the human person, even when the intention is to safeguard or promote individual, family or social well-being. Consequently it is an error to think that a conjugal act which is deliberately made infecund and so is intrinsically dishonest could be made honest and right by the ensemble of a fecund conjugal life" (Paul VI, Enc. Humanae Vitae, July 25, 1968, n. 14).[/quote]

First of all it mentions nothing of desire or objective disorders. Secondly its stating that the will cannot change an intrinsically disordered act.

But good try sport

[XIX]

By the way, I'm a Cubs fan.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402133' date='Oct 14 2007, 01:03 AM']Well, you have said that some people are "homosexual," which means that you see that disordered condition as in some sense inherent to certain human beings.[/quote]

From the Bishops Pastoral letter on Homosexuality

[quote][b]Christians who are homosexual[/b] are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God's personal call to them, they will be able to celebrate the Sacrament of Penance more faithfully and receive the Lord's grace so freely offered there in order to convert their lives more fully to his Way.[/quote]

oh wait who wrote that?

[quote]Given at Rome, 1 October 1986.

JOSEPH CARDINAL RATZINGER
Prefect[/quote]

[Jaime]

[quote name='XIX' post='1402137' date='Oct 14 2007, 01:10 AM']By the way, I'm a Cubs fan.[/quote]

Ok that might be an intrinsically disordered desire








just kidding

[XIX]

But I can't call myself a Cubs fan, which means that I somehow am saying that being a Cubs fan is inherent to me as a human being.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402136' date='Oct 13 2007, 11:09 PM']Oh and let's look at the whole paragraph Todd
First of all it mentions nothing of desire or objective disorders. Secondly its stating that the will cannot change an intrinsically disordered act.[/quote]
That which is objectively disordered is intrinsically wrong, i.e., it is disordered [i]per se[/i]. Sadly, we will never agree on this topic. Unlike you, I will never seek to justify the homosexual condition as "normal."

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402149' date='Oct 14 2007, 01:25 AM']That which is objectively disordered is intrinsically wrong, i.e., it is disordered [i]per se[/i]. Sadly, we will never agree on this topic. Unlike you, I will never seek to justify the homosexual condition as "normal."[/quote]

Again you resort to putting words in my mouth, thus weakening your position even more. You cannot give one quote from me that even comes close to suggesting that.

And you know that

[hyperdulia again]

Apo I think your use of the term pathological is misguided.

Anywho...I think the thread should be one dedicated to commiserating with me over the fact that I can't watch Brad Pitt movies. This is a tragedy.

[Jaime]

And Todd

Are you accusing the Holy Father of the same thing that you accuse me?

You never responded