Gay Cancer

[Jaime]

[quote]but with that said... jaimie did say "a desire is not disordered" at one point. i think there was somehting else going on that i maybe wasnt aware of.[/quote]

noooo

I said a desire is not intrinsically disordered.

[Apotheoun]

Professor Kenneth Kemp from the University of St. Thomas calls homosexual desires "intrinsically disordered," and he seems completely unaware of your novel views on this topic.

That said, anything that frustrates the proper end of an action or being is by definition intrinsically disordered.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Apotheoun

[dairygirl4u2c]

what do you mean by that hot stuff? the one guy quoted the catechism as saying this...

[quote]Homosexual inclination = objective disorder
Homosexual act = intrinsic disorder[/quote]

it seems like having a desire isn't disordered in that you aren't sinning. but the fact you have a desire at all is disordered.

with that said, i think a clarification and firm stance by jaimie is warranted. from where i'm sitting anyway.

Edited October 14, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think there's been a confusion...
jaimie admits that it's disordered. he says it's not intrinsically disordered.

maybe what he's saying is that it's not so intrinsic your disorder that you're automatially sinning.

or at least i'm not sure why he draws a line between intrinsically disordered and disordered.

he needs to clarify.

remember, homosexuality often refers to the state of being a homosexual. so to say homosexuality is to say being a person who's a homoseual is disordered. which is not the case.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402086' date='Oct 13 2007, 11:47 PM']Professor Kenneth Kemp from the University of St. Thomas calls homosexual desires "intrinsically disordered," and he seems completely unaware of your novel views on this topic.

That said, anything that frustrates the proper end of an action or being is by definition intrinsically disordered.[/quote]

Well Professor Kemp isn't the first one. And I don't know how novel my view is since I'm toting the Church line on this.


And if its completely interchangeable and I'm wrong, why does the Church make such a strong effort to make the distinction?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402092' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:02 PM']Well Professor Kemp isn't the first one. And I don't know how novel my view is since I'm toting the Church line on this.
And if its completely interchangeable and I'm wrong, why does the Church make such a strong effort to make the distinction?[/quote]
Perhaps the Church of hot stuff, but not the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

[XIX]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402086' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:47 AM']Professor Kenneth Kemp from the University of St. Thomas calls homosexual desires "intrinsically disordered," and he seems completely unaware of your novel views on this topic.

That said, anything that frustrates the proper end of an action or being is by definition intrinsically disordered.[/quote]
By novel views, do you mean the ones I quotes in the Catechism?

I dunno how much credibility your professor has, but I choose to give more Catholic cred to...uhum...the Catholic Church.

[quote]Chastity and homosexuality

CCC 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, [u][b]tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[/b][/u] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [b][u]This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.[/u][/b] They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

CCC 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.[/quote]
The Church has spoken. If your argument is that the Church teaches that a homosexual inclination is intrinsically disordered, then here is the proof that it is now. This debate is over.

Edited October 14, 2007 by XIX

[Jaime]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402093' date='Oct 14 2007, 12:04 AM']Perhaps the Church of hot stuff, but not the doctrine of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

And yet I've quoted multiple texts from the Catholic Church

You've offered opinion

Oh and if the Holy Father is comfortable enough to call people with homosexual attractions, homosexuals

Its good enough for me folks

and that ain't the church of hot stuff

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='XIX' post='1402096' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:09 PM']By novel views, do you mean the ones I quotes in the Catechism?

I dunno how much credibility your professor has, but I choose to give more Catholic cred to...uhum...the Catholic Church.[/quote]
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a reference text, nothing more, and it does not purport to an exhaustive treatment of Catholic doctrine.

An objective disorder is by definition an intrinsic disorder, because a disorder of that kind concerns the proper end of the action or being in question.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402099' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:12 PM']And yet I've quoted multiple texts from the Catholic Church

You've offered opinion

Oh and if the Holy Father is comfortable enough to call people with homosexual attractions, homosexuals

Its good enough for me folks[/quote]
hot stuff,

Do a search and you will see that I have quoted Magisterial texts on this topic at Phatmass for more than three years.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

No man is ontologically a homosexual.

[Jaime]

Todd

Show me where the Church states no distinction between intrinsic and objective disorders.

[XIX]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402103' date='Oct 14 2007, 01:15 AM']hot stuff,

Do a search and you will see that I have quoted Magisterial texts on this topic at Phatmass for more than three years.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
But not in this debate, which mean you are losing the debate (from a Catholic perspective) unless you can somehow prove that a homosexual desire is both objectively and intrinsically disordered.

Besides, aren't we picking at some serious nits at this point?

[Apotheoun]

As Dr. Kemp put it so well: "In its teaching on homosexuality the Church makes a sharp distinction between homosexual activity, which it holds to be objectively wrong in all cases for the reasons mentioned above, and homosexual desires, which it holds to be intrinsically disordered, but not in themselves morally wrong (or sinful)."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='XIX' post='1402106' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:18 PM']But not in this debate, which mean you are losing the debate (from a Catholic perspective) unless you can somehow prove that a homosexual desire is both objectively and intrinsically disordered.

Besides, aren't we picking at some serious nits at this point?[/quote]
It is by definition unnatural and intrinsically disordered for a man to desire to have sex with another man, and that you are unaware of this fact is most disturbing.

[XIX]

If we are going to debate this any further, can we at least give some definition of the terms "intrinsic" and "objective?"

Lacking this, the debate is kind of lacking any real direction.

[Jaime]

I think that Dr Kemp would be the first to admit he is not an authoritative document of the Church.

I could drive down and ask him

[XIX]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1402108' date='Oct 14 2007, 01:20 AM']It is by definition unnatural and intrinsically disordered for a man to desire to have sex with another man, and that you are unaware of this fact is most disturbing.[/quote]
One would think that a person would be so disturbed as to do something meaningful to change my mind. You aren't even offering arguments anymore, but assertions. If you don't offer some sort of Church document to support your claims, then i have no reason to attempt dialogue with you.

I have no idea who "Dr. Kent" is. Why on earth do you expect me to trust his opinion if you can't even site Catholic teaching?

[XIX]

I'll re-visit this thread when Apo sites an authoritative church document.

Until then, go Red Sox.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1402110' date='Oct 13 2007, 10:20 PM']I think that Dr Kemp would be the first to admit he is not an authoritative document of the Church.

I could drive down and ask him[/quote]
hot stuff,

I have read your posts in this thread and I have seen nothing in the documents of the Roman curia (i.e., [i]Persona Humana[/i] and [i]Homosexualitatis Problema[/i]) that supports your making a hard distinction between "objective" and "intrinsic." That said, if something is objectively disordered it is disordered per se, i.e., it is intrinsically or inherently disordered. I am saddened by your constant attempts to legitimize the homosexual condition as something normal.

God bless,
Todd