Victims, Survivors, And Perpetrators

[Lil Red]

title says all.

do you think that if you are a Christian, and you've been in some way abused (as a child or adult), you have to forgive the people who abused you?

since this is a sensitive topic, i beg everyone to be sensitive to people's histories (though you may not know them), and say everything with the utmost love, respect and Christian charity.

[Autumn Dusk]

In my view forgiveness is up to God. If one says the Our Father all people are lumped into it.

[Winchester]

The simple answer is yes. The fact is that some people might not be capable of deciding to forgive and therefore not culpable of withholding forgiveness.

Forgive is not a synonym for forget. Forgive is not a synonym for permitting survival of a predator.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1411177' date='Oct 29 2007, 03:19 PM']The fact is that some people might not be capable of deciding to forgive and therefore not culpable of withholding forgiveness.[/quote]
explain this please

[Dismas]

As painful as it is, yes.

We are to imitate Christ, and as such, we too must forgive those who crucify us, justly or unjustly.
[quote]"And Jesus said, "[b]Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do.[/b]" And they cast lots to divide his garments.[/quote]

And anyone who holds a grudge, please don't say the Our Father, as it will come back upon you.

"...Forgive us our trespasses [b]AS we forgive[/b] those who trespass against us..."

[goldenchild17]

I haven't experienced anything like what many people have so maybe its easy for me to say, but I think we definitely have to forgive, no matter how bad it is.

[SarahB]

In my experience, it's necessary to heal. Now, that's just my experience and I'm not saying that it's true for everyone. But until I could learn to forgive the person who hurt me, I couldn't truly heal the hurt that had happened. It took me a very long time to get to that point, though.

But we are called to forgive. Jesus says that we will be forgiven only if we forgive those who have sinned against us. (Matthew 6:15)

[Lena]

I think it's more complicated than yes and no.

I'm just a flawed person as is everyone else---God's forgiveness is what counts. I do think that a level of forgiveness is important, which would be an attempt at moving beyond extreme feelings of hate/fear/sadness because that can consume you.

[aalpha1989]

like everyone else said, yes.

I had a friend who was abused by her step-father and told no one until she gave a testimonial. i was pretty close to her and she looked right at me as the words "sexual abuse" came out of her mouth and her eyes said "i'm sorry for not telling you". she had unbelievable support and she and i talked about it and she was never able to forgive her step-father until that testimonial when she gave it all up to God and spilled it out. It was a sad day for everyone else because we learned of the news, but it was the day when her life became free again. She had hated him for years before that moment, and then she just gave up and felt the world slide off her shoulders.


So it's possible, but it's seems to me that it may be a long and painful process. A victim can get through it though. Just stick with the sacraments and prayer and you'll be ok.

[GodChild]

I have to say NO ... the forgive everyone for everything logic is the reason why every [perpetrator] gets away with everything ....The idea that forgiveness is up to God is also ludicrous - he didn't go through the trauma. Either way you have no autonomy and no recognition that you have suffered. No one says, "you have suffered", no one acknowledges "you are hurt" - its just the same all, same all - love and forgive so the [perpetrators] can go off and do it again.

[mod]Strong, emotional remarks... - inDEED[/mod]

[Praedicator]

I had a suppressed memory of abuse, and then the perpetrator confessed to me. I went through the gamut of emotion about it, but the thing that held me together was the conviction that forgiveness was the only answer. But what is important is when and how you forgive. I think you can't really [u]start[/u] there, because that holds up the healing process. You have first to face and admit what it is that has happened, and face and admit the emotions that arouses in you. You have to yourself repent of nourishing anger, because that is what gives power to the evil memory. Then you can forgive and pray for the perpetrator properly. And, as someone said above, forgiveness implies that something evil has happened, and does not mean for example that you should not do your level best to put the perpetrator in jail if they are a danger to other people.
Best to get some experienced guidance from a Catholic counsellor who believes in sin and redemption, backed up by good spiritual direction.

[Winchester]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411232' date='Oct 29 2007, 07:15 PM']I have to say NO ... the forgive everyone for everything logic is the reason why every [perpetrator] gets away with everything ....The idea that forgiveness is up to God is also ludicrous - he didn't go through the trauma. Either way you have no autonomy and no recognition that you have suffered. No one says, "you have suffered", no one acknowledges "you are hurt" - its just the same all, same all - love and forgive so the [perpetrators] can go off and do it again.[/quote]
You have a bizarre definition of "forgive."

This is why you should stay in school, kids.

[GodChild]

I am not uneducated or stupid

My definition of forgiveness is the definition it takes in practice - not in theoretical mumbo-jumbo discussions

[Winchester]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411251' date='Oct 29 2007, 08:28 PM']I am not uneducated or stupid

My definition of forgiveness is the definition it takes in practice - not in theoretical mumbo-jumbo discussions[/quote]
Neither nor would be more appropriate.

You apparently can't give as good as you get, either. Laugh at yourself; the rest of the world is doing it.

So there is but one forgiveness "that takes place in practice," is there? You seem to define forgiveness solely as permitting offenders to walk free. I do not hold to that definition, nor is it how I go about my business. Your theory is demolished, even if I am the only person who does not "practice" your definition of forgiveness.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Praedicator' post='1411233' date='Oct 29 2007, 07:18 PM']I had a suppressed memory of abuse, and then the perpetrator confessed to me. I went through the gamut of emotion about it, but the thing that held me together was the conviction that forgiveness was the only answer. But what is important is when and how you forgive. I think you can't really [u]start[/u] there, because that holds up the healing process. You have first to face and admit what it is that has happened, and face and admit the emotions that arouses in you. You have to yourself repent of nourishing anger, because that is what gives power to the evil memory. Then you can forgive and pray for the perpetrator properly. And, as someone said above, forgiveness implies that something evil has happened, and does not mean for example that you should not do your level best to put the perpetrator in jail if they are a danger to other people.
Best to get some experienced guidance from a Catholic counsellor who believes in sin and redemption, backed up by good spiritual direction.[/quote]


really good point...

[GodChild]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1411253' date='Oct 30 2007, 12:37 PM']Neither nor would be more appropriate.

You apparently can't give as good as you get, either. Laugh at yourself; the rest of the world is doing it.

So there is but one forgiveness "that takes place in practice," is there? You seem to define forgiveness solely as permitting offenders to walk free. I do not hold to that definition, nor is it how I go about my business. Your theory is demolished, even if I am the only person who does not "practice" your definition of forgiveness.[/quote]

I don’t care what the rest of the world is doing, my opinion is my opinion. Does a practical forgiveness only exist? Yes, I believe so. Forgiveness is an act therefore it requires doing. Does this forgiveness entail offenders walking free? In most instances ... yes, while the victims must comfort themselves with the quaint notion that somewhere at some time they will go to hell because there is no recourse, no punishment.
My theory is not demolished simply because it’s not the way you go about your business, or you do not practice my definition of forgiveness.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411259' date='Oct 29 2007, 08:53 PM']I don’t care what the rest of the world is doing, my opinion is my opinion. Does a practical forgiveness only exist? Yes, I believe so. Forgiveness is an act therefore it requires doing. Does this forgiveness entail offenders walking free? In most instances ... yes, while the victims must comfort themselves with the quaint notion that somewhere at some time they will go to hell because there is no recourse, no punishment.
My theory is not demolished simply because it’s not the way you go about your business, or you do not practice my definition of forgiveness.[/quote]

That's a little ridiculous, don't you think? Taking consolation that your attacker will go to Hell? That is not true forgiveness, nor is it Christian forgiveness. The Christian doctrine of forgiveness is a doctrine of love which wishes the best for someone else. That best is never Hell. Wouldn't it be better to take consolation in the idea that perhaps the attacker will repent and at a later date convert? That means more in heaven and is in line with what God willed for us. Also, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in The Spirit of the Liturgy that salvation is not complete until "the entire cosmos" is saved. If you wish damnation upon someone, no matter their earthly punishments (or lack thereof), then you are not "practicing" forgiveness. If you believe you are then you cannot call yourself a Christian.

In short, we can leave you to your skewed belief in the definition of forgiveness. Then you must recant any professed faith in Jesus Christ. That is, unless you return to the truly Christian definition of forgiveness (and therefore love).

Quick edit to remind that even after all that Jesus went through (humiliation, nakedness, beatings, scourgings, piercings, abandonment) he still uttered "Father forgive them, they don't know what they do"

Edited October 30, 2007 by aalpha1989

[CatherineM]

I voted that it is more complicated than yes or no. I'm an attack survivor. I was injured so badly that I spent 8 years in a wheelchair. The head injury prevented me from being able to confront my attacker in court. I didn't get that kind of closure. I'm not sure I have really put much though into whether I have forgiven him. I think about the attack all the time, but this may be hard to understand, I don't think about him. I can't say actually if I have forgiven him or not.

I belong to a support group for immigrant women who have been rape/torture/attack survivors. I didn't want to go at first because I didn't feel like I had the right to sit in a room with women from Darfur or Cambodia. PTSD groups are hard to come by, so I had to take what I could. Sitting in the room with these women, hearing their stories, makes me wonder how they could ever forgive.

The priest who sat in the hospital all night with me the night I got hurt told me that forgiving is important to healing, you do it for yourself, but you don't have to forget. If you forget, then you have opened yourself up to it happening again.

[Winchester]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411259' date='Oct 29 2007, 08:53 PM']I don’t care what the rest of the world is doing, my opinion is my opinion. Does a practical forgiveness only exist? Yes, I believe so. Forgiveness is an act therefore it requires doing. Does this forgiveness entail offenders walking free? In most instances ... yes, while the victims must comfort themselves with the quaint notion that somewhere at some time they will go to hell because there is no recourse, no punishment.
My theory is not demolished simply because it’s not the way you go about your business, or you do not practice my definition of forgiveness.[/quote]
Your opinion is yours if you keep it. You didn't. You made an assertion. In a public forum. You had a false premise.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't have posted in the first place. You do care. You want people to know your opinion and you want a reaction. Your words were inflammatory. Also designed to get a reaction.

Forgiveness can be entirely internal.

Forgiveness does not require one to let the forgiven go free. I truly hope that every predator who is killed goes to heaven. I also hope they are stopped by whatever means before they hurt someone again.

Because of your wording, your premise is easily shot down. Pay more attention in the future.

[GodChild]

My opinion is mine, it remains mine regardless if I make it public or not. My words are inflammatory because they are contrary to what you believe. If I gave an answer like everyone else my words would not be construed as inflammatory – your problem with me and your decision to attack me is based on my opinion and belief being different to yours.
The question posed is as a Christian do you HAVE to forgive – my response is NO.