Victims, Survivors, And Perpetrators

[GodChild]

double .. sorry

Edited October 30, 2007 by GodChild

[Maggyie]

The OP asks if CHRISTIANS... in other words those who believe in Jesus Christ... HAVE to eventually forgive their attackers in order to be theologically consistent. I have to admit to carrying the residue of a grudge myself, although nowhere near what other people have gone through. But I think Christians do have to forgive. I'm not completely there myself

As far as non-Christians, obviously people whose philosophical outlook is not based on forgiveness do not have to forgive others to be consistent. The Ayn Rand objectivists, for instance, probably don't have to forgive others, especially since they don't feel the need to be forgiven for anything, themselves.

Of course most Christians - and secular psychiatric professionals - would say that the Ayn Rand people still "have" to forgive in order to be made whole...

[Norseman82]

I voted more complicated than yes or no, because sometimes it takes a long time for a person to be able to get their bearings straight (think of people who have nightmares years after their trauma). It's not our business to browbeat victims or tell a rape victim that she can't pray the Our Father the day after her attack. Our efforts would be better spent ridding our parishes of cohabiting cantors and EMHCs.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1411287' date='Oct 29 2007, 10:17 PM']That's a little ridiculous, don't you think? Taking consolation that your attacker will go to Hell? That is not true forgiveness, nor is it Christian forgiveness. The Christian doctrine of forgiveness is a doctrine of love which wishes the best for someone else. That best is never Hell. Wouldn't it be better to take consolation in the idea that perhaps the attacker will repent and at a later date convert? That means more in heaven and is in line with what God willed for us. Also, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in The Spirit of the Liturgy that salvation is not complete until "the entire cosmos" is saved. If you wish damnation upon someone, no matter their earthly punishments (or lack thereof), then you are not "practicing" forgiveness. If you believe you are then you cannot call yourself a Christian.

In short, we can leave you to your skewed belief in the definition of forgiveness. Then you must recant any professed faith in Jesus Christ. That is, unless you return to the truly Christian definition of forgiveness (and therefore love).

Quick edit to remind that even after all that Jesus went through (humiliation, nakedness, beatings, scourgings, piercings, abandonment) he still uttered "Father forgive them, they don't know what they do"[/quote]

First of all, the attacker may not ask for or want forgiveness. And if that is the case, Hell is justice.

Second, you need to reread Revelations. One of the themes of the book is that the good will go to heaven, and the evil to hell. Additionally, there is a part where there is a vision of the martyred souls crying to God to avenge their blood, and God didn't browbeat them by calling them unChristian and unforgiving or demand that they recant any profession in Christ, huh?

[GodChild]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1411413' date='Oct 30 2007, 07:06 PM']First of all, the attacker may not ask for or want forgiveness. And if that is the case, Hell is justice.

Second, you need to reread Revelations. One of the themes of the book is that the good will go to heaven, and the evil to hell. Additionally, there is a part where there is a vision of the martyred souls crying to God to avenge their blood, and God didn't browbeat them by calling them unChristian and unforgiving or demand that they recant any profession in Christ, huh?[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411390' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:10 AM']My opinion is mine, it remains mine regardless if I make it public or not. My words are inflammatory because they are contrary to what you believe. If I gave an answer like everyone else my words would not be construed as inflammatory – your problem with me and your decision to attack me is based on my opinion and belief being different to yours.
The question posed is as a Christian do you HAVE to forgive – my response is NO.[/quote]
No. Your posts are inflammatory because you use inflammatory language. You are purposely insulting to God, something you know Catholics hold sacred. If atheists made enough of an impression on me for me to come up with something inflammatory about them (their heyday is long gone, and the most influential members--Stalin and Mao, murderers both--are dead) then I could give you an example on neutral territory. Nor can I walk up and slap down deism, because it, as well, is practically defunct. When Christianity as a whole gets to the same place (and I can see it looming close), you and I can have a drink and remember the good old days.

The reason I've engaged you is because you chose a certain tone that I find irresistable. Your position has less to do with it than you would think. When you learn this, you'll be able to communicate with the civilised members of the board. I'm the guy that teaches you. I serve a purpose. You can go on a row with me, or you can have a real discussion with the decent people. Your choice.

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411414' date='Oct 30 2007, 12:15 AM'][/quote]

It actually [i]doesn't[/i] matter if the offender desires forgiveness, not if we're coming from a Christian perspective. As Followers of Christ, we follow his example, who forgave even the men who nailed him to the cross. And by the fact that there's nothing in the text to say they were sorry - how could they be as they were still in the process of committing the unjust act? - we see from the example of Jesus that forgiveness is a powerful and necessary thing for us to do.

The secular psychology/therapeutic world has even picked up on this in many ways, particularly by noticing the great benefits there are for the individual who can forgive and make peace in his or her own heart. This isn't to say it's easy. From my own experience of going to court many years ago and dealing with people who were not at all sorry for their actions against me, I had a small taste of this myself.

Regardless, from the Christian perspective, there is no doubt given the example of Jesus that we are to forgive at all extremes. [b][i]Seventy times seven. All those who trespass against us. [/i][/b]

[Lena]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1411402' date='Oct 30 2007, 01:46 AM']The OP asks if CHRISTIANS... in other words those who believe in Jesus Christ... HAVE to eventually forgive their attackers in order to be theologically consistent. I have to admit to carrying the residue of a grudge myself, although nowhere near what other people have gone through. But I think Christians do have to forgive. I'm not completely there myself

As far as non-Christians, obviously people whose philosophical outlook is not based on forgiveness do not have to forgive others to be consistent. [b]The Ayn Rand objectivists, for instance, probably don't have to forgive others, especially since they don't feel the need to be forgiven for anything, themselves. [/b]

Of course most Christians - and secular psychiatric professionals - would say that the Ayn Rand people still "have" to forgive in order to be made whole...[/quote]

That's a good point as to why people should attempt at forgiving--if we want to be forgiven (especially since we're all human and aren't perfect), so we should try to forgive others. To [i]not[/i] want to be forgiven sounds callous, and uncaring to others.

However, I can say these things without having been truly tested on them. Which is why I said it's too complicated in my earlier post.

[GodChild]

The ideal is to forgive, but it is also a vicious and cruel burden to place on a victim. It is easy for one to say “forgive seventy seven times” or this is what god wants you to do – doing it is a different story.
I went through abuse through my whole life. When I was seventeen I was gang-raped and set alight. Do I have to forgive those who attacked me and hurt me? From a theoretical standpoint, you may say yes. From a practical/realistic standpoint I say No. Why do I say no? Because every day I see the scars over my body, every day I wake up to meds, post-trauma backflashes and nightmares. I will never get married or have children/ a family. I will never have friends because I am a cripple to people ... and i have to forgive? those who get away with it, those who do not and will not ever say sorry? Those who don’t care ?
To demand mandatory forgiveness or else you are not a christian is punitive and cruel. Not only do you place an impossible burden on the victim but then you demonise them when they refuse to jump when you say so?

Edited October 30, 2007 by GodChild

[PapaHilarious]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411626' date='Oct 30 2007, 02:51 PM']The ideal is to forgive, but it is also a vicious and cruel burden to place on a victim. It is easy for one to say “forgive seventy seven times” or this is what god wants you to do – doing it is a different story.
I went through abuse through my whole life. When I was seventeen I was gang-raped and set alight. Do I have to forgive those who attacked me and hurt me? From a theoretical standpoint, you may say yes. From a practical/realistic standpoint I say No. Why do I say no? Because every day I see the scars over my body, every day I wake up to meds, post-trauma backflashes and nightmares. Almost everyday, as hard as I try not to, I cut myself to ease the pain. I will never get married or have children/ a family. I will never have friends because I am a cripple to people ... and i have to forgive? I have to forgive those who hurt me and get away with it? Those who do not and will not ever say sorry? Those who don’t even care about what they’ve done?
To demand mandatory forgiveness or else you are not a christian is punitive and cruel. Not only do you place an impossible burden on the victim but then you demonise them when they refuse to jump when you say so?[/quote]

God bless you for sharing.

Please do not mistake the command as coming from individuals. [i]Christ[/i] is the one who gives the commandments. Christ, who bears the marks of nails still in his resurrected body, the wounds of evil torture, which you also know. He is the one who said 70x7 and cried out for forgiveness for his torturers.

I still bear scars from my days as a cutter, and I can tell you as someone who's walked his own trail of pain, there is no peace in holding hatred in your heart - whether it's directed outwardly or inwardly. You and I and all those on this board still have life here on earth, and the chance to make a difference. Never discount that.

The reason Christ gave us this commandment is precisely because He knew that hatred destroys the soul. Our forgiveness is not first and foremost for others, others who may never care, it is for [b]ourselves[/b], so that we can heal and not become like the evil that was done to us.

And in case this has gone unnoticed in the other posts, let me reiterate: No one has ever claimed this to be easy. Christ, in fact, calls us to the high road. But to climb it is to reach the peak of mercy and grace.

[Adrestia]

I voted yes for two reasons.

1) Anger destroys the person who carries it around - not necessarily the person at which it is directed.

2) We all fall short and need forgiveness. It is easy for me to sit here and say that I have never been as bad as the person that hurt me, but that doesn't make me innocent.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='PapaHilarious' post='1411471' date='Oct 30 2007, 10:12 AM']It actually [i]doesn't[/i] matter if the offender desires forgiveness, not if we're coming from a Christian perspective. As Followers of Christ, we follow his example, who forgave even the men who nailed him to the cross. And by the fact that there's nothing in the text to say they were sorry - how could they be as they were still in the process of committing the unjust act? - we see from the example of Jesus that forgiveness is a powerful and necessary thing for us to do.

The secular psychology/therapeutic world has even picked up on this in many ways, particularly by noticing the great benefits there are for the individual who can forgive and make peace in his or her own heart. This isn't to say it's easy. From my own experience of going to court many years ago and dealing with people who were not at all sorry for their actions against me, I had a small taste of this myself.

Regardless, from the Christian perspective, there is no doubt given the example of Jesus that we are to forgive at all extremes. [b][i]Seventy times seven. All those who trespass against us. [/i][/b][/quote]

But keep in mind that from a [i]sacramental[/i] perspective, we do indeed need to approach God and ask for His forgiveness in order for it to be granted.

And now that I am posting at a time where my eyes are not glazed over from being up with a production support issue, we need to show some Christian kindness and understanding by realizing that it sometimes takes time to work out those grudges, especially if the consequences of the hurt stay with you (think of someone physically disabled from an attack). Sometimes people just want the chance to tell their attacker "look what this has done to me" in order for closure. If we start browbeating the victims by telling them they can't say the Our Father or tell them they need to retract all claims to being Christian, we could very well short-circuit that process. Sometimes it is best to give the victims breathing room to work it out - even if it takes their entire lifetime. That's all I'm trying to say.

Additionally, I heard a homily from a priest once that said that in forgiveness, continuing the relationship with the one who hurt you is not always necessary. And the CCC recognizes the duty of restitution of the offender. Nothing I've read in the CCC states that we must forfeit our right to restitution in order to show we are forgiving someone. If I'm wrong, please show me the CCC paragraph.

[Winchester]

I am not an atheist. Vonnegut made the point several times over that some people made decisions because of chemicals in their bodies. He wasn't speaking of drugs.

We are body and soul. There is an emotional componant to us that we sometimes don't have complete control over and I believe God is quite capable of taking that into account. Sometimes, some people simply aren't going to be able to forgive. Leave it to God to decide the culpability.

[Praedicator]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411626' date='Oct 30 2007, 04:51 PM']The ideal is to forgive, but it is also a vicious and cruel burden to place on a victim. It is easy for one to say “forgive seventy seven times” or this is what god wants you to do – doing it is a different story.
I went through abuse through my whole life. When I was seventeen I was gang-raped and set alight. Do I have to forgive those who attacked me and hurt me? From a theoretical standpoint, you may say yes. From a practical/realistic standpoint I say No. Why do I say no? Because every day I see the scars over my body, every day I wake up to meds, post-trauma backflashes and nightmares. I will never get married or have children/ a family. I will never have friends because I am a cripple to people ... and i have to forgive? those who get away with it, those who do not and will not ever say sorry? Those who don’t care ?
To demand mandatory forgiveness or else you are not a christian is punitive and cruel. Not only do you place an impossible burden on the victim but then you demonise them when they refuse to jump when you say so?[/quote]
When I read your first post I thought you had been hurt. I think you are brave for coming out from behind the cloud of anger and telling your story, and nothing I went through was a fraction as bad. But what you are not hearing is that forgiveness sets the forgiver free. And I do know about the place of being unable to forgive, which is why I wrote what I wrote before. You have a right to be angry, you think. Well... maybe. But anger is like a burning coal. You are hurting. If you saw someone holding a burning coal, and they said 'I'm hurting', what is the first thing you would tell them to do? God Bless.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='Praedicator' post='1411726' date='Oct 30 2007, 09:57 PM'] When I read your first post I thought you had been hurt. I think you are brave for coming out from behind the cloud of anger and telling your story, and nothing I went through was a fraction as bad. But what you are not hearing is that forgiveness sets the forgiver free. And I do know about the place of being unable to forgive, which is why I wrote what I wrote before. You have a right to be angry, you think. Well... maybe. But anger is like a burning coal. You are hurting. If you saw someone holding a burning coal, and they said 'I'm hurting', what is the first thing you would tell them to do? God Bless.[/quote]

In all honesty that sincerly is one of the WORST analogies ever. Anger/pain over abuse is not just a burning coal but more like a burst infected appendix. It takes a skilled surgon alot to save the person and many months of healing afterward before a person is able to function.

I've been trough tough stuff, too.
I know that atleast 5 of my abusers are not sorry, never will be, and their only regret is that they cannot continue. I leave forgiveness up to God. I can not forgive them becuase they are not accepting or even acknowleging of what they did wrong. They think they are right in their sin.
I do not think God would require me to do something He himself cannot do (until they change) and even if they do change I don't see that God would require it of me.

Three of my abusers were young themselves (under age 13) so I'm sure that a)either their lives are miserable for the sin they continued or b) they struggle with what they did.
For them I occasinally pray. They were children themselves. They were helpless and misguided. I don't see how God could require me to forgive them as I was much younger than they were but in some way I have.

A general portion of my abusers, im not sure the number exactly but around 12, I guess, were teenagers/young adults...I'm not sure where I fall on this.

I think Godchild's right you find her words inflamitory becuase you cannot immagine what its like. Godchild is actually much more civilized than many peolpe who've survived horrible things are towards god. I also find the idea that I'm somehow supposed to have hope that hell would sufice as punishment for some of the horrible things that have been done to me. Like Godchild I bear the scars of abuse. My toes and fingers look like an 80year old lady's due to be repeatedly broken. You can't fathom life after abuse if you've not been trough it.

One thing to keep in mind is that abuse can change the brain, especally in the early years. The brain actually forms differently. I don't think it has anything to do with culpibility but rather understanding that with so many people in the world who have a rough start from day one requring Catholics, Christians, or people of any degree to forgive people who have harmed them is setting yourself up for trouble as a catechisis

[CatherineM]

GodChild - My attacker will also never ask for forgiveness because he believed he was doing God's work. I also see my scars everyday, have flashbacks, and night terrors. I also thought that no one would ever want to marry me or even be my friend. I hated myself so much, that I assumed everyone else would too. I had given up hope, but one day I woke up not only convinced that I could get better, but I knew that I would. God didn't heal my body, he healed my soul. I started trying to walk again that day. I couldn't stand up straight or bend my knees or ankles, but I walked Frankenstein like about 20 feet. That was 3 years ago this Thursday. A year and a half later, I got married. I had to learn to forgive myself for being fragile, before I could start caring enough about myself to put myself through the pain that getting out of the wheelchair entailed. I still walk with a crutch or a cane most of the time, at least I'm supposed to, but I consider every step I take a gift from God. You may have been damaged, but the Lord allowed you to live for a reason. I'm firmly convinced that living a full life, as healthy and happy as I am capable of, is the best revenge.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1411413' date='Oct 30 2007, 03:06 AM']First of all, the attacker may not ask for or want forgiveness. And if that is the case, Hell is justice.

Second, you need to reread Revelations. One of the themes of the book is that the good will go to heaven, and the evil to hell. Additionally, there is a part where there is a vision of the martyred souls crying to God to avenge their blood, and God didn't browbeat them by calling them unChristian and unforgiving or demand that they recant any profession in Christ, huh?[/quote]

Like someone said before, it doesn't matter from our perspective if the attacker asks for forgiveness or not. We are not to judge them and say that they WILL be condemned to Hell, because we do not have that right nor do we know what is in their heart or mind. Hell is justice for all of us. God's work is two-fold...justice and charity. if it was only justice I know I for one would be Hell-bound. Probably most of us would be.
I was out of line for calling for GodChild to recant belief in Christ. I apologize. I realize I should not have said it (or thought it). Please forgive me?

However, I will maintain my stance that GodChild's position is inconsistent with any Christian theology. Christ did not preach that "forgiveness", nor did he "practice" it. He practiced true forgiveness and was pretty darn good at it.

Sure your opinion is your opinion. It's false, too. True forgiveness is not a subjective "this is my opinion that is your opinion" thing.

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1411664' date='Oct 30 2007, 06:58 PM']But keep in mind that from a [i]sacramental[/i] perspective, we do indeed need to approach God and ask for His forgiveness in order for it to be granted.

And now that I am posting at a time where my eyes are not glazed over from being up with a production support issue, we need to show some Christian kindness and understanding by realizing that it sometimes takes time to work out those grudges, especially if the consequences of the hurt stay with you (think of someone physically disabled from an attack). Sometimes people just want the chance to tell their attacker "look what this has done to me" in order for closure. If we start browbeating the victims by telling them they can't say the Our Father or tell them they need to retract all claims to being Christian, we could very well short-circuit that process. Sometimes it is best to give the victims breathing room to work it out - even if it takes their entire lifetime. That's all I'm trying to say.

Additionally, I heard a homily from a priest once that said that in forgiveness, continuing the relationship with the one who hurt you is not always necessary. And the CCC recognizes the duty of restitution of the offender. Nothing I've read in the CCC states that we must forfeit our right to restitution in order to show we are forgiving someone. If I'm wrong, please show me the CCC paragraph.[/quote]

I apologize also that perhaps I have not been clear on what forgiveness is. I never said (or intended) that a "relationship with the one who hurt you" is necessary. It's not. Forgetting is not necessary either. Forgiveness does not mean pretending it never happened. That is not what I meant.

I also did not mean that forgiveness should be instantaneous or that they can't pray the Our Father. I didn't say that either. In fact I said that it is a process that can take a long time and mentioned my friend who was sexually abused by her step-father.

I also understand that restitution is a duty. I never said it was not- I simply said that whether restitution is made or not, the victim MUST forgive. Funny that you should mention the Our Father, actually. "Forgive us our trespasses [b]as we forgive those who trespass against us[/b]." One is praying that God forgives oneself as much as one has forgiven others. *shrugs* sounds kinda obvious what that means to me. Also the parable which was the gospel sometime last week- The parable of the servant who is forgiven his debt and then refuses to forgive another servant's debt....the first servant is thrown to the torturers until his own debt is repaid. Sounds like Jesus took forgiveness pretty seriously.

[Starets]

I have found that the hardest person to forgive is yourself for not being able to stand up to them either physically or verbally

[Maggyie]

I think it's Mark Shea who likes to say that refusing to forgive is like swallowing poison and expecting the person you're angry at to get sick...

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411232' date='Oct 30 2007, 12:15 AM']I have to say NO ... the forgive everyone for everything logic is the reason why every [perpetrator] gets away with everything ....The idea that forgiveness is up to God is also ludicrous - he didn't go through the trauma.[/quote]

That's not quite true. God knows all the trauma of every abuse that has ever taken place, as Jesus bore that pain on the cross. The pain of each individual person, not some abstract idea of 'humanity's anguish'. Loneliness, humiliation, fear, physical agony, the pain of rejection, the pain of not being believed - he knew them all. He loves us enough to bear it with us.

[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/parnassus/497_large.jpg[/img]

I do believe forgiveness is necessary, because forgiveness is freedom. This is NOT the same as making up excuses for the perpetrator. In order to forgive them, you have to fully acknowledge the sheer horror of what they've done. That involves justifiable anger. Fury, even. Once, when visiting a young friend in her psychiatric unit, I was shocked when she said calmly that she had been fantasising about going to the house of her rapist and murdering him. Her anger grew and grew until it seemed to fill the room. At first I wanted to protest against this rage, seeing it as unhealthy...and then I saw that it was the healthiest thing she could possibly have at that moment. At last she had stopped blaming herself for the abuse. At last she had started to blame him. And you can only forgive abuse once you accept that you did nothing to deserve it and that the fault is with the abuser.

It is not right to see forgiveness as a burden. It is only possible to see it that way if you view it as a kind of glorified excuse for people who do bad things. It isn't so. Forgiveness comes with a full realisation of two things: the enormity of the sins and crimes that that person has committed, and the burning love that God has for them. There are people who I can't forgive at the moment (my friend's rapist, for a start) so I just ask God for the desire to forgive and go away in peace. I know that my prayer will be heard when the time is good.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous