Victims, Survivors, And Perpetrators

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1411232' date='Oct 30 2007, 12:15 AM']I have to say NO ... the forgive everyone for everything logic is the reason why every [perpetrator] gets away with everything ....The idea that forgiveness is up to God is also ludicrous - he didn't go through the trauma.[/quote]

That's not quite true. God knows all the trauma of every abuse that has ever taken place, as Jesus bore that pain on the cross. The pain of each individual person, not some abstract idea of 'humanity's anguish'. Loneliness, humiliation, fear, physical agony, the pain of rejection, the pain of not being believed - he knew them all.

There is a picture showing Jesus as a child in Auschwitz. That sums it up well.

I do believe forgiveness is necessary, because forgiveness is freedom. This is NOT the same as making up excuses for the perpetrator. In order to forgive them, you have to fully acknowledge the sheer horror of what they've done. That involves anger. Fury, even. Once, when visiting a young friend in her psychiatric unit, I was shocked when she said calmly that she had been fantasising about going to the house of her rapist and murdering him. Her anger grew and grew until it seemed to fill the room. At first I wanted to protest against this rage, seeing it as unhealthy...and then I saw that it was the healthiest thing she could possibly have at that moment. At last she had stopped blaming herself for the abuse. At last she had started to blame him. And you can only forgive abuse once you accept that you did nothing to deserve it and that the fault is with the abuser.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1411956' date='Oct 31 2007, 11:40 AM']That's not quite true. God knows all the trauma of every abuse that has ever taken place, as Jesus bore that pain on the cross. The pain of each individual person, not some abstract idea of 'humanity's anguish'. Loneliness, humiliation, fear, physical agony, the pain of rejection, the pain of not being believed - he knew them all.

There is a picture showing Jesus as a child in Auschwitz. That sums it up well.

I do believe forgiveness is necessary, because forgiveness is freedom. This is NOT the same as making up excuses for the perpetrator. In order to forgive them, you have to fully acknowledge the sheer horror of what they've done. That involves anger. Fury, even. Once, when visiting a young friend in her psychiatric unit, I was shocked when she said calmly that she had been fantasising about going to the house of her rapist and murdering him. Her anger grew and grew until it seemed to fill the room. At first I wanted to protest against this rage, seeing it as unhealthy...and then I saw that it was the healthiest thing she could possibly have at that moment. At last she had stopped blaming herself for the abuse. At last she had started to blame him. And you can only forgive abuse once you accept that you did nothing to deserve it and that the fault is with the abuser.[/quote]

interesting. i'm going to think and meditate on this tonight and then get back to you.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1411956' date='Oct 31 2007, 10:40 AM'][quote]QUOTE(GodChild @ Oct 30 2007, 12:15 AM)
I have to say NO ... the forgive everyone for everything logic is the reason why every [perpetrator] gets away with everything ....The idea that forgiveness is up to God is also ludicrous - he didn't go through the trauma.[/quote]

That's not quite true. God knows all the trauma of every abuse that has ever taken place, as Jesus bore that pain on the cross. The pain of each individual person, not some abstract idea of 'humanity's anguish'. Loneliness, humiliation, fear, physical agony, the pain of rejection, the pain of not being believed - he knew them all.
[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I spent so many years angry at God, wrapped in cycles of sinful self-indulgences. The idea that God, chillin' up in heaven, "knows what I went through" did not work for me. If He's truly omnipotent and omniscient... then He also knew what was going to happen to me beforehand, and He allowed it to happen anyway. For 17 years I didn't trust God - how could I when He sat up there and just allowed it to happen? That's supposed to be infinite love? Jesus chose to suffer for His Father's sake - and He chose this as a grown man. It was hard for me to identify my suffering with His.

Through the grace of God (and an incredible priest) I did finally learn to trust God again. It changed my life completely - even how I viewed the past. Instead of feeling alone and abandoned, I now feel like God was there with me, suffering with me, hurting with me through it all. It's like that "footprints in the sand" story without the image of a nice sandy beach. The best part was breaking the cycles of self-indulgences. Don't feel like I need them anymore.

[Praedicator]

I'm sorry the analogy of the burning coal does not work for you. It did for me, but as you say it was part of a process that involved help from more than one person. I did say that a person who wanted healing should get help, and rather specifically help of two kinds - someone to talk the matter through with, so you are absolutely clear what you are deling with, and a priest with authority to forgive sins, cast out demons and administer healing. And as I said before, forgiveness in this sort of area seems to me to be a rather lengthy process, gone through for your own sake as much as anything else.
The idea of the burning coal is that you are holding onto something that hurts you. You do not have to accept hatred and anger as a part of your psyche, if that is what you are feeling. You can let go, with the help of God. If you are able to pray for the perpetrators and see them as people, you have done what is needed in their regard. I don't think you need feel there is some special further step you have to take - what could it be?
Personally I don't find Godchild's words inflamatory. From her very first post it was clear that this was not someone who should be bullied or harangued. I tried hard in my words not to do so. I know what it is like to feel you cannot/should not forgive. I also know that freedom does not lie that way.
I don't think reflection on hell is specially productive here. Perhaps a genuine desire for their repentance would be a better 'revenge' because personally I can't imagine anything more horrible than having to really accept and face that you had done something that horrible to another human being.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I'd vote yes... precisely because I AM a grudge holder. I have struggled for a long time now with a couple grudges. I try to forgive (and sue me, I still pray the Our Father), but I don't always feel in my heart that I have (fully) done so. It's an on going battle. It's easy to say "yes" but following through is a much more difficult task to accomplish.

[cmotherofpirl]

I am sorry but this is not an option ""...Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us..." . God doesn't offer us a deal on this one. But no where does He demand this as our first response, because forgiveness can take time. Sometimes we must forgive the same offense again and again, as events in our lives bring it back to the forefront of our minds.

Forgiveness does not mean you ever have to talk or see or have contact the perp again.
Forgiveness does not mean they escape legal punishment.
Forgiveness does not mean you have to become friends with the person.
Forgiveness doesn't mean things ever go back to normal, because normal has now changed.
Forgiveness never means you pretend it didn't happen.

Forgiveness is work, effort, counseling, praying. Forgiveness is saying the emotion is gone and you wish them well[even if your testimony put them in prision for their crime]
And finally, forgiveness is freedom.

Until you forgive the perp still has pwer over you. Forgiveness changes you from victim to survivor.
I AM a survivor.

[Mary-Kathryn]

I put that it's more complicated than yes or no. I have pesonally found that many Christians equate forgiveness with "sweeping it under the rug." I can't deny that part of me or pretend it's not there.

The best advice I received was from a priest: Forgiveness does not mean being buddies with the person. I may have strong feelings if I come across that person again. or the very thought of this person may evoke anger. I am not able to forgive, just can't do it. But the priest urged that I open myself to God and let Him try to work through me. Some days it is a struggle. Forgiveness isn't a warm cozy feeling. It's work. At least in my case

[photosynthesis]

God will be merciful to those who show mercy. Jesus, when dying on the cross, forgave every single disciple who abandoned him, every Roman soldier who whipped and humiliated him and the Jewish authorities who plotted against him. That's not to say that actual reconciliation took place.

We all experience some form of unmerited injustice and injury in our lives. For some people, this injury is more severe, as in cases of abuse, neglect, molestation, etc. I don't want to go into personal experiences, but there are people in my life who have wounded me and I am trying my best to forgive them, even though I don't want to. One of my best friends gave me this advice "If you don't want to forgive because you don't feel like you're ready, offer that up to God. Pray that He'll give you the grace to want to forgive." Forgiving someone doesn't mean you're reconciled with them. Reconciliation doesn't ever have to happen. When I broke up with my ex boyfriend, I had days where I'd see him around campus and think to myself "I hope he chokes on his lasagna. I hope he fails his exams today." I wanted revenge. But I prayed for him, and little by little I stopped desiring revenge for him and I found myself praying that God would bless him and help him to experience the peace that comes from knowing Christ. My heart desires what is best for him--salvation. If he called me up one day, or knocked on my door, would I answer? Of course not. I know people can change, but he will never again have my trust. I won't ever have a relationship with him, I will not speak to him, he is not my friend. Even if he has a radical conversion to Christ, I don't have to be friends with him or associate myself with him. He would be my brother--but still, a distant brother.

[Lil Red]

another question.

if you cannot forgive someone, and cannot say that part in the Our Father, are you not allowed to receive the Eucharist?

[Lil Red]

oh, and i just bought a great book [url="http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Forgiveness-Catholics-Welcoming-Reconcilation/dp/1594711224/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195794559&sr=8-1"]"Facing Forgiveness"[/url]

it's really amazing

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1423832' date='Nov 22 2007, 11:08 PM']oh, and i just bought a great book [url="http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Forgiveness-Catholics-Welcoming-Reconcilation/dp/1594711224/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195794559&sr=8-1"]"Facing Forgiveness"[/url]

it's really amazing[/quote]
thanks for the recommendation.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1423829' date='Nov 23 2007, 01:06 AM']another question.

if you cannot forgive someone, and cannot say that part in the Our Father, are you not allowed to receive the Eucharist?[/quote]
Of course you can recieve communion. Receiving grace will help. Forgiveness doesn't happen overnight, its a choice but also a process. You do need to pray for the person [ you don't have to like doing it but you do it anyway], and remember our forgiveness is based on our ability to forgive others. You don't get what you can't give.

[Starets]

For some people in my past, "the Blessing for the Tsar" is the best I can manage, and I pray that there is no one who invokes that blessing for me. I think God (I hope God) can work with that as a beginning at least

[Chaya]

as i understand it, God forgives me when i ask for forgiveness, with a sincere and contrite heart -- repentance is the word. then, he will forgive me.

the same, if the person who wronged me comes and sincerely regrets and asks for forgiveness, i am to forgive. - this does not mean i won't hurt anymore, or forget, and that the person should not be brought to justice, but that i allow that person (and myself) to live/start a new life.

and yes, i have suffered abuse and rape - from age 4 on.

[ThePenciledOne]

I say forgive. It releases the most weight from a person, since the unforgivness tends to eat at a person and eventually poisons them from the inside out.

And I can speak somewhat from experience, since it took me a while to forgive my father for what he has done/not done to me. Which has left me in some places of my life extremely wounded and hallow. Yet, I can say that forgiving someone that has hurt you a lot will make you turn to God even more and want His mercy even more. For if God, Himself can forgive all of your own transgressions why cannot I a sinner forgive a fellow sinner?