Does Anyone Have A Relative Or Close Friend Who Is Gay Or Lesbian?

[Kitty]

I have two gay friends, one is male, the other is female. I've never spoken to them about their orientation and I don't intend to unless they want to discuss it with me. It's none of my business. My gay friends are just as much fun to hang around with as my straight friends. They are funny, compassionate, sympathetic, and I like to talk with them. They're just people made by God and He decided to make them have a different oritentation, and different struggles, because he loves them. We need to love them too and help them when they ask or need it. Doesn't mean we need to approve of their lifestyle, but we still need to love them.

[Veritas]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1444756' date='Jan 11 2008, 08:10 PM']Veritas,

I guess if I am honest with myself, I can say I feel hypocritical admonishing my cousin and gay friends for their lifestyle, as I too am a sinner, and far from perfect.[/quote]

+

I hear what you are saying, but using that logic, none of us would ever admonish another and the Church tells us we ought to (and using that logic -the Church would be wrong!)! Why ought we to admonish? It is an act of mercy, an act of love. We see Christ himself do this in the Gospels and we see the Apostles as well. I speak as a sinner myself, of course. Let's make sure to make the distinction -I am not saying condemning, and that is not what the Church says. She says to "admonish"

def: "Admonish" 1 a: to indicate duties or obligations to b: to express warning or disapproval to especially in a gentle, earnest, or solicitous manner 2: to give friendly earnest advice or encouragement to -Webster

God Bless,
V

[Veritas]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1444875' date='Jan 12 2008, 01:49 AM']I have two gay friends, one is male, the other is female. I've never spoken to them about their orientation and I don't intend to unless they want to discuss it with me. It's none of my business. My gay friends are just as much fun to hang around with as my straight friends. They are funny, compassionate, sympathetic, and I like to talk with them. They're just people made by God and He decided to make them have a different oritentation, and different struggles, because he loves them. We need to love them too and help them when they ask or need it. Doesn't mean we need to approve of their lifestyle, but we still need to love them.[/quote]

+

This is interesting, it makes me think of Cain and Abel and the words condemned by God (he can do this, after all he IS God), "Am I my brother's keeper?" Of course, we can't change people, but we DO have an obligation to speak the truth in love to them. I understand this is COMPLETELY counter-cultural, but Christ and his Church ask it of us pretty clearly!

God Bless,
V

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]I hear what you are saying, but using that logic, none of us would ever admonish another and the Church tells us we ought to (and using that logic -the Church would be wrong!)! Why ought we to admonish? It is an act of mercy, an act of love. We see Christ himself do this in the Gospels and we see the Apostles as well. I speak as a sinner myself, of course. Let's make sure to make the distinction -I am not saying condemning, and that is not what the Church says. She says to "admonish"

def: "Admonish" 1 a: to indicate duties or obligations to b: to express warning or disapproval to especially in a gentle, earnest, or solicitous manner 2: to give friendly earnest advice or encouragement to -Webster

God Bless,
V[/quote]

Thank you V, for making things more clearer for me. It all makes more sense to me.

[infinitelord1]

i am glad to see what some of you are writing aboutl. I struggle with same sex attraction. Its not something that I asked for. Its something that was dealt to me. One time I had a sexual attraction towards the opposite sex which has led me on a journey to try to overcome same sex attraction. One thing that we have to realize is that nobody is perfect. We all have our faults. Those who hate gays are in a state of sin! Those who prevent gay people from succeding in life are in a state of sin! Its through understanding how people need to treat gay people better. This was certainly not something that people asked for! It was dealt to them! If you want to help them, you need to look past their orientation and befriend them. If you are of the same sex as the gay person...treat them as you would any other member of the same sex. Try to make them feel like they are apart of the group especially if you are in a group full of the same sex. What I have learned is...homosexuality is a gender identity issue. It has a lot to do with how the person views him/her self.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1444884' date='Jan 12 2008, 02:36 AM']+

This is interesting, it makes me think of Cain and Abel and the words condemned by God (he can do this, after all he IS God), "Am I my brother's keeper?" Of course, we can't change people, but we DO have an obligation to speak the truth in love to them. I understand this is COMPLETELY counter-cultural, but Christ and his Church ask it of us pretty clearly!

God Bless,
V[/quote]

See, I don't think it is our duty to barge into someone else's orientation and be like "you know, what you're doing is a sin, and if you don't repent, you're going to hell". How would you feel if someone of a different Religion than yours came up to you and started admonishing your actions based on their Religion. I know that if I was the person being admonished, I could care less about what they said because I'm not a part of the Religion anyway.

If gay people do not know that they are sinning when they engage in homosexual actions, then they are not guilty of anything. If I knew a gay person who was Catholic, and knew he was sinning, then I might say something to him.

[Kitty]

double post

Edited January 12, 2008 by Kitty

["Kyrie eleison"]

infinitelord,

It definitely is something that should be disccussed. In the fundamentalist/evangelical circles to be gay or lesbian is basically treating you like you have the plague. Fornication is fornication, regardelss of you preference.

Many families of gays and lesbians like to pretend that it is something that will pass. My aunt is in denial that her daughter is a lesbian. Her brother's wife told him, if she ever told me that she is, she cannot see the kids.

My cousin loves those kids and will not bring up the matter with her brothers family. It is such a struggle with her.

She even married when she was younger and that was such a big disaster.

Edited January 12, 2008 by "Kyrie eleison"

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]What I have learned is...homosexuality is a gender identity issue. It has a lot to do with how the person views him/her self.[/quote]

Infinitelord,

If you could kindly expound.... I know that my cousin was treated like a boy from an early age. Her mom used to dress her like a boy as they really wanted a boy. I know that this has affected her identity greatly.

With that said, if this is not her fault, I wonder if this could possibly fall under the invinicble ignorant clause. Of course, she still would have to suffer the pains of purgatory.

[Spamity Calamity]

[quote name='infinitelord1' post='1444903' date='Jan 12 2008, 08:05 AM']i am glad to see what some of you are writing aboutl. I struggle with same sex attraction. Its not something that I asked for. Its something that was dealt to me. One time I had a sexual attraction towards the opposite sex which has led me on a journey to try to overcome same sex attraction. One thing that we have to realize is that nobody is perfect. We all have our faults. Those who hate gays are in a state of sin! Those who prevent gay people from succeding in life are in a state of sin! Its through understanding how people need to treat gay people better. This was certainly not something that people asked for! It was dealt to them! If you want to help them, you need to look past their orientation and befriend them. If you are of the same sex as the gay person...treat them as you would any other member of the same sex. Try to make them feel like they are apart of the group especially if you are in a group full of the same sex. What I have learned is...homosexuality is a gender identity issue. It has a lot to do with how the person views him/her self.[/quote]

Thanks for sharing infinite!

[Veritas]

+

silly double post!

Edited January 12, 2008 by Veritas

[Veritas]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1444922' date='Jan 12 2008, 10:53 AM']See, I don't think it is our duty to barge into someone else's orientation and be like "you know, what you're doing is a sin, and if you don't repent, you're going to hell". How would you feel if someone of a different Religion than yours came up to you and started admonishing your actions based on their Religion. I know that if I was the person being admonished, I could care less about what they said because I'm not a part of the Religion anyway.

If gay people do not know that they are sinning when they engage in homosexual actions, then they are not guilty of anything. If I knew a gay person who was Catholic, and knew he was sinning, then I might say something to him.[/quote]

I appreciate what you are saying, but regarding: "barge into someone else's orientation and be like 'you know, what you're doing is a sin, and if you don't repent, you're going to hell'" -that's NOT admonishing (caps for emphasis), that is condemning. That is definitely NOT what is being recommended. Please see the definition of "admonish", provided above. We use opportunities that may arise.

Regarding, "If gay people do not know that they are sinning... they are not guilty of anything." Yes, they may have a very lessened degree of culpability, but regardless of moral and spiritual guilt they are still suffering the effects. For example, if a person doesn't know that lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, drug use, is a sin, they still suffer the ill consequences of those behaviours. Sin by it's very nature degrades us. So, out of love, we gently offer alternatives, explanation, and prayers.

[EAnn246]

One of my best friends is a lesbian. She was raised Catholic and still identifies herself as Catholic even though she knows the Church's position on homosexuality. Since she has come out, she has become more religious and happier with herself. (She suffered from severe depression). I might not agree with homosexuality, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

[Veritas]

[quote name='EAnn246' post='1444960' date='Jan 12 2008, 01:40 PM']One of my best friends is a lesbian. She was raised Catholic and still identifies herself as Catholic even though she knows the Church's position on homosexuality. Since she has come out, she has become more religious and happier with herself. (She suffered from severe depression). I might not agree with homosexuality, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.[/quote]

"I'm not about to change who she is"

Christ will, but he's expecting us to help Him! We are "co-workers" with Christ!

[Kitty]

You can't "change" gay people...and I don't think it's God's will that we change them. Are you talking about changing their orientation?? Because that's ridiculous...

[Deb]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1444978' date='Jan 12 2008, 02:17 PM']"I'm not about to change who she is"

Christ will, but he's expecting us to help Him! We are "co-workers" with Christ![/quote]

Yeah, you can't change their orientation. You could explain the chasity thing though. It is the same for heterosexuals who are not married.

[Veritas]

[quote name='Deb' post='1445132' date='Jan 12 2008, 10:56 PM']Yeah, you can't change their orientation. You could explain the chasity thing though. It is the same for heterosexuals who are not married.[/quote]

+

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. The orientation is debatable (let's not put limits on the healing power of God), but definitely to pray for a change from living the "gay" lifestyle to one of chastity. That's the Church's teaching and it's one of those universal things.

God Bless you and your friend!
V

Edited January 13, 2008 by Veritas

[Socrates]

[quote name='Spamity Calamity' post='1444638' date='Jan 11 2008, 04:25 PM']I do not feel a responsibility myself. He knows how the Catholic church feels about homosexuals and knows that it goes against Objectivist philosophy as well. He understands why it is considered a sin. He doesnt care. He himself is an atheist that holds great respect for the Catholic Church for advancing science, producing some of the greatest intellectual minds ever, keeping knowlege alive during the dark ages, and for all the good the church does today as well. He thinks that the Catholic Church and Objectivism just got it wrong on this subject and feels that in time it will be corrected.

I hope he doesnt kick my butt for revealing this but he does not engage in sex with other men. He is attracted to men, and he watches alot of gay porn (like ALOT...alot...aloooooot). He has had oral sex with other men but never anal sex ever. But his last sexual encounter was in high school and hes like 25 now and does not date or "go clubbing" hes trying to get a Masters in government and reads.

So what am I supposed to do? I'd have to get him to believe in God before I could convince him a sin was worth avoiding, right? He knows how I feel and the Catholic Church and Objectivism and he doesnt care. As far as another Catholic telling me the condition of my salvation I would be a little insulted. What gives them the right to determine my salvation? That is not their job. I would believe it more if a priest told me or it was written into Canon law or something. The best I can do is be an example to him of "What nice people those Catholics are!"[/quote]
I think you have the right idea.
Presumably he knows how you, as a Catholic, regard homosexual vice.
Since he is an atheist, it is unlikely he will try to overcome his homosexuality until he first believes in Christ. After all, as Nietzche said, without God all things are permitted.
So I'd say it would be most important first to try to lead him to Christ. If he becomes a sincere Christian/Catholic, he may then see the need to overcome his sin.

And if he has a problem with porn, this is a serious matter morally, whether or not he engages in sodomy with other men. Pornography, whether "gay," "straight," or what have you, is a serious moral problem which is hard to overcome.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1444875' date='Jan 12 2008, 02:49 AM']I have two gay friends, one is male, the other is female. I've never spoken to them about their orientation and I don't intend to unless they want to discuss it with me. It's none of my business. My gay friends are just as much fun to hang around with as my straight friends. They are funny, compassionate, sympathetic, and I like to talk with them. They're just people made by God and He decided to make them have a different oritentation, and different struggles, because he loves them. We need to love them too and help them when they ask or need it. Doesn't mean we need to approve of their lifestyle, but we still need to love them.[/quote]
First of all, the Church teaches that homosexuality is an objectively disordered condition. It is a result ultimately of original sin. God does not make anyone homosexual, anymore than he makes anyone a thief, liar, or murderer.
Some people may struggle with an inclination towards that sin, but that does not make the condition good in itself.

[quote name='Kitty' post='1444922' date='Jan 12 2008, 11:53 AM']See, I don't think it is our duty to barge into someone else's orientation and be like "you know, what you're doing is a sin, and if you don't repent, you're going to hell". How would you feel if someone of a different Religion than yours came up to you and started admonishing your actions based on their Religion. I know that if I was the person being admonished, I could care less about what they said because I'm not a part of the Religion anyway.

If gay people do not know that they are sinning when they engage in homosexual actions, then they are not guilty of anything. If I knew a gay person who was Catholic, and knew he was sinning, then I might say something to him.[/quote]
With due respect, that is nonsense.
Sinful activity (whether homosexuality or anything else) is intrinsically wrong and evil, and hurts the soul of the sinner as well as others. We can never presume that a person is in a state of innocence, just because he has not been told an activity is wrong. Ignorance is not bliss.
As Christians, we are [i]commanded[/i] to correct the sinner.

Two of the seven Spiritual Works of Mercy which the Church commands us are to [b]Instruct the Ignorant[/b], and to[b] Admonish the Sinner[/b].
These are not suggestions, but commands of Christian life.

In fact, if we know something is wrong, and willfully fail to correct it, we make ourselves at least in part guilty of the sins of others.

Note that these are works of [b]Mercy[/b]; they are acts of mercy and charity to others.
Look at this way; if someone you loved was dancing aroud blindfolded at the edge of a cliff, unaware of the cliff, would it not be for his own good to try to stop him?

And whether or not particular homosexuals are "nice," "fun," etc. is completely irrelevant to morality of homosexual acts.

[quote name='EAnn246' post='1444960' date='Jan 12 2008, 02:40 PM']One of my best friends is a lesbian. She was raised Catholic and still identifies herself as Catholic even though she knows the Church's position on homosexuality. Since she has come out, she has become more religious and happier with herself. (She suffered from severe depression). I might not agree with homosexuality, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.[/quote]
I might not agree with drug abuse, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with theft, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with pedophilia, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

If someone is living a life of sin, she is [b]not[/b] living a truly religious life. It is an act of mercy to try to lead your friend to repentence. You must love the sinner, but this also means hating the sin. Giving approval of sinful activity in reality benefits no one.

And homosexuality is serious business; the Church lists sodomy among the five Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengance.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1445425' date='Jan 13 2008, 10:01 PM']I might not agree with drug abuse, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with theft, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

I might not agree with pedophilia, but she is who she is and she remains one of my best friends. I'm not about to change who she is.

If someone is living a life of sin, she is [b]not[/b] living a truly religious life. It is an act of mercy to try to lead your friend to repentence. You must love the sinner, but this also means hating the sin. Giving approval of sinful activity in reality benefits no one.

And homosexuality is serious business; the Church lists sodomy among the five Sins that Cry Out to Heaven for Vengance.[/quote]
I fail to see where in that quote she indicated that her friend was leading a life of sin. Being a homosexual does not equate to having homosexual relationships with others.