Does Anyone Have A Relative Or Close Friend Who Is Gay Or Lesbian?

[Kitty]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1447243' date='Jan 17 2008, 09:29 PM']Maybe I'm wrong, but when you say someone "came out" as "gay," I assume they're "living the lifestyle" (eg. committing homosexual acts or at least seeking out homosexual "relationships.")[/quote]

What...I never said they "came out" as gay. I just said they were gay. And it's not your place to make assumptions about people's lifestyles. Just because I said I'm "straight" does not mean I'm having sex.

[quote]A homosexual is one who commits homosexual acts. A person should not be defined by temptations which he does not act on.[/quote]

So if I have temptations, and I am heterosexual, but do not act on them, what should I be labeled? "Nothing"? Your claim makes no sense.

[quote]One who resists temptations to steal is not a thief.
One who resists temptations to adultery is not an adulterer.
People should not be defined by inclinations to sin.[/quote]

You really don't want to listen to people who have different opinions than you, so I might as well just give up trying to make this point, but I'll say it one more time, [b]homosexuality is not an automatic inclination to sin.[/b]

[quote]And I'll repeat: God does [b]not[/b] make anybody "gay" or homosexual.
That would be saying God is responsible for disorder and inclination to sin.
God only makes that which is good.
Disorder is the result of original sin (a privation of a due good).
You need to get your theology straight (no pun intended).[/quote]

Do you have ANY proof, at all, that proves your statement that God does not make people gay? Is your brain somehow linked to God's mind? (and don't give me baised websites that claim "no one's born gay!" That is not proof either.) I don't have proof that God doesn't make people gay. I have no proof that he does make them gay. Give yourself a break and don't try and speak for God.

[quote]And if "God makes people gay," does God also make people have a sexual attraction to small children? To barnyard animals??[/quote]

You're making an insulting, borderline homophobic generalization. Being gay should NOT be compared to pedophilia or zoophilia. They are completely different disorders.

[quote]And I've never heard of an infant coming forth from his mother's womb filled with homosexual desires[/quote]

Yeah, I've never heard of an infant coming from his mothers womb with any sexual desire whatsoever. I think those desires happen around puberty or teenage years.

I'm just curious, have you ever even gotten to know someone who was gay? Or attempted to talk to them?

Edited January 18, 2008 by Kitty

[Kitty]

double post

Edited January 18, 2008 by Kitty

[Socrates]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1447288' date='Jan 17 2008, 11:27 PM']What...I never said they "came out" as gay. I just said they were gay. And it's not your place to make assumptions about people's lifestyles. Just because I said I'm "straight" does not mean I'm having sex.
So if I have temptations, and I am heterosexual, but do not act on them, what should I be labeled? "Nothing"? Your claim makes no sense.
You really don't want to listen to people who have different opinions than you, so I might as well just give up trying to make this point, but I'll say it one more time, [b]homosexuality is not an automatic inclination to sin.[/b][/quote]
It is Church teaching that homosexual inclinations are [b]objectively disordered[/b] - that is they are ordered toward a sinful act. From the [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfhomop.htm"]words of our Holy Father I linked to earlier in this thread[/url]:[quote]Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, [b]it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil[/b]; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.[/quote]
The inclination is not a sin, but an inclination toward a sin (intrinsic moral evil), and to act on it is sinful.

[quote]Do you have ANY proof, at all, that proves your statement that God does not make people gay? Is your brain somehow linked to God's mind? (and don't give me baised websites that claim "no one's born gay!" That is not proof either.) I don't have proof that God doesn't make people gay. I have no proof that he does make them gay. Give yourself a break and don't try and speak for God.[/quote]
God does not make disorder or "tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil" of any kind.
A tendency towards moral evil does [b]not[/b] come from God, but is a result of original sin.

[quote]You're making an insulting, borderline homophobic generalization. Being gay should NOT be compared to pedophilia or zoophilia. They are completely different disorders.[/quote]
Maybe disgusting, but I'm actually making a very valid point.
It is well-documented that some people do in fact have very deep-rooted tendencies to pedophilia, zoophilia, and a host of other sexual perversions as well.
They are disordered, just as homosexuality is, although even worse.
Are you claiming God creates some serious sexual disorders, just not the "really, really, really bad" ones?
This is a very serious point, which you simply dodged by throwing out the p.c. epithet "homophobia."

Answer - God does not create ANY objectively disordered inclinations in people of any kind.
They are the result of original sin and man's concupiscence.
It's past time you learned some basic theology.
I know enough about God to tell you HE is NOT the author of inclinations toward moral evil.

[quote]Yeah, I've never heard of an infant coming from his mothers womb with any sexual desire whatsoever. I think those desires happen around puberty or teenage years. [/quote]
Exactly - it was you claimed they were "born gay."

[quote]I'm just curious, have you ever even gotten to know someone who was gay? Or attempted to talk to them?[/quote]I was briefly employed by a lesbian - did nothing to change my opinion, but that's irrelevent to what I'm discussing here.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Socrates

[Kitty]

I'm not even going to reply. I see that you are completey closed minded to anything anyone else has to say over this subject and you have not even provided proof that backs up some of your claims even though I asked. I'd just be repeating myself if I replied and I really don't have time for nonsense like that. Oh well.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Kitty

[carrdero]

[quote]Socrates writes It is Church teaching that homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered - that is they are ordered toward a sinful act. From the words of our Holy Father I linked to earlier in this thread:[/quote]
And these teachings are as primitive and prejudiced as the day they were spoken.

[quote]Socrates writes The inclination is not a sin, but an inclination toward a sin (intrinsic moral evil), and to act on it is sinful.[/quote]

Only in your moral opinion.
[quote]Socrates writes: God does not make disorder or "tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil" of any kind.[/quote]
For anyone willing to reason beyond the simple judgment of “intrinsic moral evil”, God also doesn’t do anything to prevent or correct this “disorder”.
[quote]Socrates writes: A tendency towards moral evil does not come from God, but is a result of original sin.[/quote]
People do not have to acknowledge the legacy or the inheritance of original sin. They are perfectly capable of designing and coming up with their own “sins”.

[quote]Socrates writes: Maybe disgusting, but I'm actually making a very valid point.
It is well-documented that some people do in fact have very deep-rooted tendencies to pedophilia, zoophilia, and a host of other sexual perversions as well.[/quote]

Hmmm. Some people? Not exactly what a would call a valid point. I would be very interested in researching these well documented facts. Can you provide resources?

[quote]Socrates writes: They are the result of original sin.[/quote]
Homosexuality is not the result of any such superstition.

[blovedwolfofgod]

Hey, we medicate people with schizophrenia and make them better, why dont we medicate people who are gay too? I advocate the mental disorder position, but sadly, its politically taboo to look for a medication that would treat homosexuality. I think there would be a revolution, the capitol would be covered in rainbows and flowers, and the national guard would have to fight a home front insurgency.

[carrdero]

I wonder if there was any mention of Jesus curing homosexuality in the Bible. Certainly homosexuality must have been in practice during that time.

[Kitty]

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' post='1447397' date='Jan 18 2008, 05:46 AM']Hey, we medicate people with schizophrenia and make them better, why dont we medicate people who are gay too? I advocate the mental disorder position, but sadly, its politically taboo to look for a medication that would treat homosexuality. I think there would be a revolution, the capitol would be covered in rainbows and flowers, and the national guard would have to fight a home front insurgency.[/quote]

Homosexuality's not an illness...

[blovedwolfofgod]

says who? it seems from media debate, nobody know's what it is. the best and most consistent definition is that it is a disordered action or disposition. mental illness is a disordered disposition, unless you choose to argue that hearing voices is normal.

[Kitty]

Well, according to most psychology websites, psychologists don't agree that it's a mental illness.

[quote][size=1]Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.[/size][/quote]

[url="http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html"]http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html[/url]

Edited January 18, 2008 by Kitty

[blovedwolfofgod]

did you know that when this version of the DSM was written, a good portion of the psychologists were homosexual? why would a group of 'respected' men in a position to legitimize themselves not take the opportunity?

[Kitty]

Where did you hear that?

[blovedwolfofgod]

[url="http://www.narth.com/docs/mentaldisorder.html"]http://www.narth.com/docs/mentaldisorder.html[/url]

You can just cut down to the Summary section. First bullet point. Basically says that its in question.

[url="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Sodomy/homosexuality_and_psychiatry.htm"]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%..._psychiatry.htm[/url]

and this article was interesting, but the music is obnoxious and over-dramatizing. But this article addresses my point.

Edited January 18, 2008 by blovedwolfofgod

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Jozzyjo' post='1446814' date='Jan 16 2008, 09:42 PM']There is nothing "wrong" being autistic. I work with autistic men and women. They are people like you and me that see things diffrently. Autism is something you are born with. It is not a sin at all. They can't help it if they were born diffrently then the "avrege" child (actually I wonder what the "avrege" is no one is the same...everyone is diffrent).
I do admit some people "use" there handi-caps to get away with bad things. and that is wrong. I do not agree with some of the things I have seen them do, then they say they "didn't know they did it". And that is usaully a lie. BUT, a true autistic person is actually an amazing person. I have spent days studying (reading books) and spending time with autistic men and women. I have learned so much from them. Then I go to youth group and here the "normal" kids making fun of the other kids. It is not right.
In some countries they will kill an autistic child. That is sad. I have learned more from them than anyone else.
They are no diffrent than us, just see things diffrently. So, please don't say it is a sin to be autistic (I bet you that there are atleast 10 people on this bored who are autistic).

God Bless,
Jozzy[/quote]
Great post, but I think the mentioning of autism was in relation to an earlier post, which was not making it a "sin". Anywho, Welcome to Phatmass!

[quote name='Kitty' post='1447319' date='Jan 17 2008, 11:13 PM']I'm not even going to reply. I see that you are completey closed minded to anything anyone else has to say over this subject and you have not even provided proof that backs up some of your claims even though I asked. I'd just be repeating myself if I replied and I really don't have time for nonsense like that. Oh well.[/quote]

I'm not openly siding with anyone here at the moment, but I must ask you from my layman's perspective what your proofs or backups were. Thanks

[Farsight one]

I had a gay roommate for a semester. At least he said he was.

Also, studies are suggesting that homosexuality is not a choice. Here's one sample of many: [url="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html"]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neur...r2/Bodian2.html[/url]

It says that information suggests that homosexuality is not passed on through the genes, nor is it a choice. It is a genetic mutation caused by the introduction of certain chemicals in utero. This would technically make it a birth defect, but it is most certainly not a choice.

[Alycin]

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' post='1447439' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:32 AM']did you know that when this version of the DSM was written, a good portion of the psychologists were homosexual? why would a group of 'respected' men in a position to legitimize themselves not take the opportunity?[/quote]


[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' post='1447444' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:43 AM']First bullet point. Basically says that its[u][b] in question.[/b][/u][/quote]

If it's in question then you perhaps shouldn't state it as if it were a FACT.

Just a suggestion.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1448804' date='Jan 20 2008, 11:53 PM']I had a gay roommate for a semester. At least he said he was.

Also, studies are suggesting that homosexuality is not a choice. Here's one sample of many: [url="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro98/202s98-paper2/Bodian2.html"]http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neur...r2/Bodian2.html[/url]

It says that information suggests that homosexuality is not passed on through the genes, nor is it a choice. It is a genetic mutation caused by the introduction of certain chemicals in utero. This would technically make it a birth defect, but it is most certainly not a choice.[/quote]
Who, thanks for the insight there, Nightcrawler.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1448780' date='Jan 20 2008, 11:25 PM']I'm not openly siding with anyone here at the moment, but I must ask you from my layman's perspective what your proofs or backups were. Thanks [/quote]

What am I supposed to provide proof for? I've already posted links to teachings of the Church on page three and I also posted a link on this page. Otherwise, I'm speaking about people in my life and if I cannot prove something (such as I can't prove God made people gay, and vice versa) then I say so.

[blovedwolfofgod]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1448821' date='Jan 21 2008, 01:07 AM']If it's in question then you perhaps shouldn't state it as if it were a FACT.

Just a suggestion.[/quote]

You connected two unrelated points... of course, i organized them backwards. The second post is whats referring to the statement that you quoted of mine first. The bullet point is unrelated to the APA having significant gay influence in writing the DSM-4.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='blovedwolfofgod' post='1447444' date='Jan 18 2008, 05:43 PM'][url="http://www.narth.com/docs/mentaldisorder.html"]http://www.narth.com/docs/mentaldisorder.html[/url]

You can just cut down to the Summary section. First bullet point. Basically says that its in question.

[url="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Sodomy/homosexuality_and_psychiatry.htm"]http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%..._psychiatry.htm[/url]

and this article was interesting, but the music is obnoxious and over-dramatizing. But this article addresses my point.[/quote]

I wouldn't treat NARTH as a source of reputable information for anything, given the extremely dubious quality of their work. (All the studies that I've seen from them are riddled with serious methodological errors that invalidate the findings.) And as the homepage of 'Jesus is Savior' dismisses all Bible translations other than the KJV as Satanic counterfeits and currently has the sensationalist headline "Satanism in the Vatican!", I'm not really inclined to take it very seriously. Here is a sample of the quality of its contents:

[quote]Sister Charlotte Keckler and The Black Veil [She was a Catholic nun in the convent for 23 years, and tells of her nightmarish experiences―of demonic brainwashing, child molestation, priests raping little girls, shame, torture, illegitimate pregnancies, murder, drunken priests, et cetera. This is the true story of the Catholic Church. Beware of this cult![/quote]

Do you really want to listen to the claims of the people who made this website? Especially as one of the reasons why they dismiss all Bible versions except the KJV is because other translations apparently promote 'oral sex and lesbianism'? I don't know how they draw their conclusions, but their methods don't look reasonable to me.

Edited January 21, 2008 by Cathoholic Anonymous