Are You Religious ?

[jeffpugh]

Yeah. Exactly. It's sorta sickening.

[Phazzan]

I’m not religious anymore. I’ve thought about it long and hard for many years. My MO involves thinking outside the square, observing how other humans think and thinking differently. this is because human thought can’t be trusted, given the diversity of religious thought throughout history. Now a man who thinks Jesus is truth, thinks a man who thinks Allah is truth is wrong, and vice versa. See how faith betrays one man yet saves another? Faith cant be trusted. Neither can your convictions. Many of your Muslim and Jewish brothers and sisters have equally inspiring testimonies and are as blindly (you would argue) devoted to their faith as any Catholic. Yet you go to heaven and they go to hell?? Who to believe? Your faith is determined on a whole series of psycho-social phenomena, your family, your country, your race, anything but your free will. The day I exercised mine was the day I left the church.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Phazzan

[ardillacid]

Right, why believe anything. After all, you will always find someone else who disagrees with you, and who are you to say they are wrong.

[Phazzan]

You can believe anything you want, the question is weather or not there's a ticket into heaven (or hell) at the end of it.

Edited February 26, 2008 by Phazzan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1469103' date='Feb 26 2008, 08:50 AM']You can believe anything you want, the question is weather or not there's a ticket into heaven (or hell) at the end of it.[/quote]

People who believe Catholicism is a ticket to Heaven are bad Catholics.

Edited February 27, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1461180' date='Feb 13 2008, 05:23 PM']The thing i hear alot now is christians saying their not religious. They follow this up with they have a personal relationship with jesus leading to God. What is it to be religious and are you religious ? Is their anything wrong with being religious ? Are people saying that their not religious denying their faith ? What divides the catholic christian and the non denominational christian ? It seems as if the catholic christian is saying their religious and the non denominatial christian is saying their not.[/quote]

The term "religious" is taboo is many Evangelical circles because it is associated with the outward appearance of doing religious activities while lacking inner conversion of heart. This is largely due to their observance of Catholics and mainline Protestants, making religious practice something to be suspected and questioned rather than respected and imitated. Catholics are the easiest to point out as the phrases "practicing Catholic" along with "good Catholic" and "bad Catholic" (which I just used, but tongue in cheek ) are all in our vocabulary and tend to concern us more than whether our Catholic brother or sister loves Christ and if their lifestyle reflects the Gospel.

I think among some Evangelicals, perhaps in the Emerging Church Movement, people are starting to understand that being religious doesn't have to mean you have no relationship with Christ. I imagine some Catholics have helped to change that perception too. There was a post on a Relevant Magazine's board today where a Protestant mentioned how they used to be adamantly anti-Catholic until they shared a roof with a Catholic for some time. They had probably observed hundreds of Catholics from a distance, but all it took was one personal relationship to completely change them.

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1462305' date='Feb 14 2008, 01:31 PM']We know the power and value of 'religion' in the sense that they mean. Far from being empty, it enriches our relationship with God and acknowledges our humanity: we are not disembodied spirits. Yet the clincher is this: the word 'religion' actually derives from ancient words that mean RELATIONSHIP.[/quote]

Now that is interesting! I presume the shared "rel" hints at their common linguistic heritage. I'd really like to find out exactly how they are connected so I can use that bit of trivia in the future

Edited February 27, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Phazzan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1469711' date='Feb 27 2008, 01:04 AM']People who believe Catholicism is a ticket to Heaven are bad Catholics. [/quote]

Either your faith saves you or it condemns you, that is the crux of faith, "believe and you shall receive". There are few (if any) religions which preach devotion to god without some prize at the end of it.

[LouisvilleFan]

Of course... most religions teach that this world is broken and needs restoration and the only logical time that restoration can be experienced is after death. These are truths written on our hearts that are reflected dimly through nearly every religion.

However, the point isn't to get our prize. In Christianity, we love God in response to his love for us. If we're just trying to get to Heaven, we're still acting out of selfishness... and that means spending 328 years in purgatory before getting into Heaven (just kidding).

God searches all hearts, regardless of religious affiliation, and it's up to him to judge who loves him and who has condemned themselves. Without knowing for certain, there will probably be people from all faiths in Heaven. But regardless of what they were in this life, all who are saved are saved only by God's grace.

Edited February 27, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[SanctitasDeo]

[quote]To me, to be truly non-religious one would have to be either agnostic, atheist, or simply a theist. Once you start saying I have a relationship with Jesus, you are by definition a christian, you are religious in my book.

I think these people are actually just saying they're non-denominational, or they're not in an organized religion.[/quote]

I agree.

Also, I am religious.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1470035' date='Feb 27 2008, 02:56 PM']God searches all hearts, regardless of religious affiliation, and it's up to him to judge who loves him and who has condemned themselves. Without knowing for certain, there will probably be people from all faiths in Heaven. But regardless of what they were in this life, all who are saved are saved only by God's grace.[/quote]

Despite this, the Muslim man, equally devoted and convinced by his faith as any Catholic, having full knowledge of the Gospel, his faith still condemns him to hell. Faith betrays this honest and devout believer. It's no good to say "only god can judge the hearts of men", because no man honestly condemns himself to hell, every man acts according to his conscious and does only what he thinks is right. Yet we know the Catholic Church has for centuries explicitly stated salvation is only possible through its own doors.

[Guest]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1470516' date='Feb 28 2008, 03:46 AM']Despite this, the Muslim man, equally devoted and convinced by his faith as any Catholic, having full knowledge of the Gospel, his faith still condemns him to hell. Faith betrays this honest and devout believer. It's no good to say "only god can judge the hearts of men", because no man honestly condemns himself to hell, every man acts according to his conscious and does only what he thinks is right. Yet we know the Catholic Church has for centuries explicitly stated salvation is only possible through its own doors.[/quote]

whoa, the muslim man condemns himself to hell ?? slowdown buddy....Jesus said judge not lest you be judged....none of us know where anyone is going for certian for eternity.....also in the new testement paul tells us not to wonder who goes to hell and who goes to heaven....Romans 10 chapter ten : Do not say in your heart " Who will go up into heaven (that is to bring Christ down) or "Who will go down into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say ? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is the word of faith that we preach) for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved.

Althoug there are probally alot of saved people going to purgatory

I believe Gods word teaches us that he searches everyones heart and will not unjustly send anyone to hell....The catholic church is a blessing because it gives us the graces we need to get into heaven.....Im sure theres churches out there but tell me a church where i can go and get my sins absolved with confidence and also eat the flesh and drink the blood of my lord in savior which he commanded me to do if I want eternal life ?

And i really think ur wrong when you say that faith betrays the honest and devout believer. There is One God. If a muslim truely believes and loves God then who are you to say that God wont love him back ?? It seems as if your caught up in only religion and not the relationship part. If you only have one with out the other I think it can become a big problem for you....It did for me at least....Thank God for this site though where I could come and learn...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1470566' date='Feb 28 2008, 10:48 AM']Althoug there are probally alot of saved people going to purgatory [/quote]

Why is that such a sad thought? Is it realistic to expect any significant number of Christians to be so freely detached from sin than they have no need for purification between death and Heaven?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1470516' date='Feb 28 2008, 03:46 AM']Despite this, the Muslim man, equally devoted and convinced by his faith as any Catholic, having full knowledge of the Gospel, his faith still condemns him to hell. Faith betrays this honest and devout believer. It's no good to say "only god can judge the hearts of men", because no man honestly condemns himself to hell, every man acts according to his conscious and does only what he thinks is right. Yet we know the Catholic Church has for centuries explicitly stated salvation is only possible through its own doors.[/quote]

First, the teaching that all salvation comes through the Church is simply the logical parallel to Jesus' words that he is "the way, the truth, and the life." All salvation comes through Christ and also through the Church because the Church and Christ are perfectly joined in marriage. The two cannot be separated, which is why Catholicism isn't like a Protestant denomination.

So the Church isn't saying that it's impossible for a Muslim or Hindu to be saved. God would have to work outside of the normal means of salvation (the Church and sacraments), but they are God's sacraments so he may apply their graces to whomever he pleases. We are assured that God searches all hearts and that all people will be judged mercifully and justly. That is all we can desire.

Edited February 28, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Tony]

maybe it's just me.. but to the exception of people that are of a religious/priestly vocation.. saying "I'm religious" implys a holier than thou attitude, and would frighten away people from joining the Catholic Church rather than encouraging them.

also, The only thing I agree with with some protestant people is "God hates religion" but to me that means he hates that there are 4,000 or so protestant divisions where there was only meant to be one. so with that in mind, I'm not religious

[Alycin]

How on earth did I miss this thread?

Okay, first, there are the types of people who are just like Dust described:

[quote name='dUSt' post='1461248' date='Feb 13 2008, 05:50 PM']By definition, you can't be "spiritual" or Christian without being religious.

When people speak in that language they're basically saying they don't like to go to church.[/quote]


I have many friends who like to say they are Christians and pro-life and all that, and some of them never go to church, some of them ALWAYS go to church... but most of those go with a hangover from Saturday night. They like to describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious" or say, "it's about relationship, not religion."

However, I also know an entirely different group of people who share the mantra "Relationship, not religion" but they are wonderful people who love God and going to church and youth group and all that jazz, that really do spend every day wanting to grow their relationship with Christ.

I think the problem lies in that a lot of people take the word "religion" and make it mean other things... things like legalism.

These people usually don't have anything against religion as WE view it, but they have a problem with people who think that going through the motions means you're fine and dandy... or they have been burned by the church in that they were made to feel that the rules and the regulations were the focus. They were made to feel like the law was to be worshiped, and that following the law was the one and only thing that saved them. For fallen people, this is a scary thought cause we all tend to break God's law at one point or another in life.

As far as I can tell, what this second group I have described is really against is legalism, and making THAT an idol... they aren't really against religion...

[S][N]

Nope. I was Catholic for 21 years and then turned my back on Xtianity about 2 years ago. Never looked back.

Why? ...Can't believe in something that cannot be proven. The whole 'faith' thing (imo) is bull, and a copout...also I believe it makes people lazy to question themselves and their beliefs.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1469711' date='Feb 27 2008, 07:04 AM']People who believe Catholicism is a ticket to Heaven are bad Catholics. [/quote]


[quote name='Phazzan' post='1469755' date='Feb 27 2008, 11:29 AM'] Either your faith saves you or it condemns you, that is the crux of faith, "believe and you shall receive". There are few (if any) religions which preach devotion to god without some prize at the end of it.[/quote]

LouisevilleFan is right. In the words of one priest I know, "Loving for the sake of getting into Heaven is not love at all."

Christianity is about love. Christianity is about God. The two are one and the same. "He who abides in love abides in me, and I in him." The idea that devotion to God is a process that produces a 'prize' at the end is totally at odds with Christian theology, because the two things aren't distinct. In the words of Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity, "I have found Heaven on earth, for Heaven is God, and God is in my soul." Abiding in love is a 'reward' in itself, to use a very crude term.

It's interesting that you interpret Jesus' words in a material sense - ask, and you'll get a fabulous prize. The only thing worth asking for is the ability to love as He loves, as He teaches us throughout the rest of the Gospel. Christianity should never be about doing a bunch of good things for the sake of scooping the grand prize at the end. God is our Heavenly Father, not a company boss with perks to hand out to the best employee.

Edited March 1, 2008 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='S][N' post='1471729' date='Mar 1 2008, 01:35 PM']
Nope. I was Catholic for 21 years and then turned my back on Xtianity about 2 years ago. Never looked back.

Why? ...Can't believe in something that cannot be proven. The whole 'faith' thing (imo) is bull, and a copout...also I believe it makes people lazy to question themselves and their beliefs.[/quote]

There is no laziness in the faith that asks you to 'walk humbly with the Lord your God', to live in awe of 'the wonder of your being', and to 'love your neighbour as yourself'. Faith isn't a passive state. It is something to be lived out, and that's a real struggle. It forces you to grow and develop, as it also requires unity of heart and hand and head - you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and all your might. This means that intellectual effort is necessary, but it is not the only kind of effort. It's a mistake to assume that because there is no textbook formula for 'proving' the existence of God, as if He were a principle in an engineering textbook, there cannot be any grounds for believing in Him.

[S][N]

It means handing over your own ability and will to something you cannot prove exists. Faith also is the subjection (sp?) to an authority and what they say in the 'belief' that 'god' choose so. (Something else that cannot be proven).

In essence (imo) faith is becoming a slave to yet another human invention.

As for the 'textbook formulae' comment...I've heard that excuse, and even used it when I was Catholic in apologetics. It's an arguement that sits on shifting sands.

[Guest]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1470662' date='Feb 28 2008, 02:37 PM']Why is that such a sad thought? Is it realistic to expect any significant number of Christians to be so freely detached from sin than they have no need for purification between death and Heaven?[/quote]


I think its a sad thought because Jesus was sinless but was tortured on a cross for the forgiveness of sin. And purgatory from my understanding is way worse then the worst pain here, so i dont understand why Christ had to die for sin if were gonna suffer for our sin after this life anyhow. I agree we deserve to suffer for our sin but why then did Jesus come and die the way he did then ? If were going to pay for our sin when we die anyhow ?