Church Architecture

[CatherineM]

Could St. Micheal's wavy sword mean that it is supposed to a flaming sword?

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1518528' date='May 4 2008, 04:53 PM']Could St. Micheal's wavy sword mean that it is supposed to a flaming sword?[/quote]
That would make a kind of sense. Perhaps thats what they meant. Confusing at first glance however.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1517928' date='May 4 2008, 12:19 AM']Tell me about it. This is the church my sister was baptized in. The round table was where they say Mass, I kid you not.

[img]http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/justin86_bucket/Faith/DSC01117.jpg[/img]

I didn't even consider it an altar, it's pit. They have stadium seating so you literally go down to receive communion. It looks ridiculous when they are saying Mass too. Like Father is King Arthur and the deacons are his Knights.

Oh, they had liturgical dancing at the Easter Vigil too. I had to stop myself from bursting out laughing at it. Come to think of it, I've had to stop myself from bursting out laughing several times that I've been there. I can't stand the place.[/quote]
Man... that's a huge abuse... Kirie Elaison! I'm tryin to think how the extraordinary form would be celebrated there... like.... ugh... nvm... huge can of worms there.

[quote name='Justin86' post='1518014' date='May 4 2008, 02:46 AM']I dug up some more photos of that church I was talking about. Here's a photo of a St. Michael statue (St. Michael is the church's patron). Everything looks fine at first glance

[img]http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/justin86_bucket/DSC01112.jpg[/img]

Until, that is, you get an up close look at his sword.

[img]http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/justin86_bucket/DSC01113.jpg[/img]



What is up with that?[/quote]

His sword is wavy cause he just layed the smackdown on the devil. From the awexome clash they made, it made his sword wavy when he smote his face to the firey pits

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Modern churches are often ugly. The more I look into theology, the more I realize why good church architecture is important.

Here's a little fun for you...download Google Sketch-up and design the kind of church you'd like to see...it's a fun program once you get used to it...I've made lots of cool church designs.

The following is one example...it's not transparent, I just made it look that way so you could see the inside and outside at once:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v172/PrRaphael/TranslucentChurch.jpg[/img]

[kujo]

I think it's all a matter of taste, anyway. We may not like it, but some people do. I think it's kind of condescending to say that because you don't like the architecture of a Church that it's somehow less glorifying to God. Quite snooty, actually.

[quote name='mortify' post='1517852' date='May 4 2008, 12:15 AM']Church architecture has certainly gone down, as has her music, art, and other things I dare not mention.[/quote]

I think the music is good. Matt Maher and Tom Booth are making some good stuff along with Kathy Triccoli and Steve Angrisano.


[quote name='StColette' post='1518184' date='May 4 2008, 12:14 PM']Sadly, part of the reason for our lack of beautiful architechture that was found in older European and some American Churches is that we no longer can[/quote]

Yeah, exactly. A priest friend of mine was asked by our bishop to build a new Catholic community/church out in a suburb of Orlando. They've been celebrating mass in an elementary school cafeteria, waiting and saving money to build a real church. It takes a long time...and a lot of money!

[KnightofChrist]

Hey buddy we're not snooty. Money's no excuse. The churches in question off times lack catholic symbolism, and if there is any its greatly watered down. Thats the real problem "ugliness" could be forgotten if not for almost the complete lack of actual Crucifixes, icons, statues, and other catholic works of art.

Edited May 5, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1519859' date='May 5 2008, 08:41 PM']Hey buddy we're not snooty. Money's no excuse. The churches in question off times lack catholic symbolism, and if there is any its greatly watered down. Thats the real problem "ugliness" could be forgotten if not for almost the complete lack of actual Crucifixes, icons, statues, and other catholic works of art.[/quote]

What churches are you talking about? All modern architecture or specific ones. If you are complaining about specific churches, that's one thing. But to make a sweeping generalization about all modern churches being inferior or not conducive to worship is pretty snooty. I mean, in college, we had mass in an empty classroom! We had a table and a tiny Crucifix. But we didn't feel like we weren't able to participate fully in the mass.

That's all I'm saying.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1519872' date='May 5 2008, 06:47 PM']What churches are you talking about? All modern architecture or specific ones. If you are complaining about specific churches, that's one thing. But to make a sweeping generalization about all modern churches being inferior or not conducive to worship is pretty snooty. I mean, in college, we had mass in an empty classroom! We had a table and a tiny Crucifix. But we didn't feel like we weren't able to participate fully in the mass.

That's all I'm saying.[/quote]

Again, the ones that lack Catholic artwork, with only a very watered down cross without a Christ, no real catholic symboism and no actual message in the stain glass windows, things or lack of things of this nature. A basement is one thing, even there you had a Crucifix, but many of these churches do not even have that.

Edited May 5, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1519886' date='May 5 2008, 08:54 PM']Again, the ones that lack Catholic artwork, with only a very watered down cross without a Christ, no real catholic symboism and no actual message in the stain glass windows, things or lack of things of this nature. A basement is one thing, even there you had a Crucifix, but many of these churches do not even have that.[/quote]

I think the heart of worship is in the community, not the structure. But I see your point.

[KnightofChrist]

I know what you mean and I agree its the people who are the Church not the building. I would say the heart of worship is in Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I'm sure you agree.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1519895' date='May 5 2008, 09:03 PM']I know what you mean and I agree its the people who are the Church not the building. I would say the heart of worship is in Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I'm sure you agree.[/quote]

Absolutely. Couldn't agree more, dude.

[KnightofChrist]

Well thats just cool, I tellya what.

[Socrates]

[quote name='StColette' post='1518184' date='May 4 2008, 10:14 AM']Sadly, part of the reason for our lack of beautiful architechture that was found in older European and some American Churches is that we no longer can afford such things. Many parishes can barely afford to build their Churches let alone make them extravigant. I do believe they should try a little hard not to make them look so modern. Currently the parish that I work for is finishing up their renovations of their Church. Now from the outside it doesn't look like anything special, still nice looking but nothing like gothic arch. But the inside is beautiful. I would say its more of the inside of the Church that matters. The inside should lift one to the vertical not to the horizontal.

Here's a pic of some of the renovations of the parish I work for. There will be very traditional looking stained glass windows instead of the regular ones that are in the pic.

[img]http://www.stjosephchurch.net/RENO_165_THUMB.jpg[/img][/quote]
While you have a point, in that we shouldn't necessarily judge church architects or parishes for not having the equivalent of gothic cathedrals, I don't think lack of money is the primary problem in most of these ugly, modernistic church buildings. Some of these buildings given as examples are probably quite expensive, and there are quite a few famous costly monstrosities out there (such as Cardinal Mahoney's cathedral in LA). I think some of the worst church buildings are also some of the most expensive - those built to express some architect's dubious modernistic "vision," rather than oriented toward the glory of God.
A building need not be expensive or extravagant to look like a [i]church[/i], rather than a set from a bad sci-fi flick. I've seen quite a few older churches that are simple and unpretentious, yet beautiful and reverent in form. I think a lot of bad church architecture reflects bad theology. Traditional church architecture is based on order and harmony, and a literal "lifting upward" to God. Much of modernistic architecture is asymmetrical, chaotic, and unfocused, or oriented to focus on the congregation rather than God.

And, I might add, the "modernistic" architectural movement is no longer new or modern, but actually goes back some 60 years or so. (Someone once shared photos of a butt-ugly "modern" church building in France, built in the 1930s.)

Edited May 6, 2008 by Socrates

[Galloglasses]

I can fully agree with Socrates.

There used to be a small, blue 'Wooden' Church in a nearby Parish that served a couple hundred or so parishoners. Very small, no bigger then a chapel really, and very simple. But the Architecture was very traditional. (It was either wooden or made out of Limestone, can't remember. Limestone's cheap here), it was taken down and a newer, 'modern' Church built to serve the Parish. And goodness sake its far from beuatiful. Not bad, but not beautiful, the stain glasses are pretty nonsensical. The Lourdes shrine outside of it has no real statues, just an image of our Lady made out of iron framework painted white.

It is not snooty to consider something artistically poor for use in the service and worship of God. If you're building anything for the sake of God, you have to remember when everyone's gone, He's still going to be there. Would you have built a house for your Father that was more focused on its guests then it is on focusing His guests on Him?

While I will not advocate we tear these modern monstrosities down, they've been consecrated and that would be unneccesarily costly, much wiser would be to 'improve them. Put in better stain glasses, turn the conference room congregations into truely altar/tabernacle centric. We should learn tha our Cathedrals and Churches in the future should be designed better then this modern era monstrosities and take what we have now, and improve them best we can.

[SJP]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1517928' date='May 4 2008, 01:19 AM'][img]http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc131/justin86_bucket/Faith/DSC01117.jpg[/img][/quote]

They might as well celebrate Mass in an airplane hanger. I could just imagine where the Tabernacle is located... "take a right, go down the hall, down the first set of stairs and look behind my 1971 Barney vestment, and voila!"

There is actually some beautiful work being done that truly glorifies God... Duncan Stroik comes to mind: [url="http://stroik.com/"]http://stroik.com/[/url]

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='SJP' post='1520687' date='May 6 2008, 04:18 PM']There is actually some beautiful work being done that truly glorifies God... Duncan Stroik comes to mind: [url="http://stroik.com/"]http://stroik.com/[/url][/quote]

That is truely beautiful.


BTW, can anyone E-Mail me that Google Sketch-up tool? My computer is sooooo fracked it won't even download a thing from google now, (I would nuke the comp and start over but my Brother has some stuff on it still so, no nukeage)

[SJP]

Here is another great site: [url="http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/"]The Institue For Sacred Architecture[/url]

[Autumn Dusk]

I do not like big grand, churches. I feel really nervous in them and in all honesty, they are full of waste as it takes alot of money to heat them or cool them.

Modern churches I believe, aren't done to offend the sences, but rather becuase of the modern worldly way of designing. In the old days when many churches were built ALL fancy buildings were out of stone with ornate work (if possible). I'll be as people introduced new styles they all gathered round the new church and called it ugly.

[Deo Iuvente]

I wish people wouldn't bring up cost. Do you know who built those beautiful churches we see? Not the rich, but the poor. People saved up for years, scratching up pennies and dimes, and single dollars to build a church. My parish is a good example. It was built by the Irish factory workers who went to manayunk daily to work for almost nothing, yet they still built [url="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1239/1428874476_e5e51776d7.jpg?v=0"]This[/url]. My parish is still not rich. A little better of than before, but we certainly don't have people with a lot of money, yet four years ago, we restored the whole thing, and reversed the changes that came in with the "Spirit of Vatican II". Now, we're on a capital campaign to fix the windows and the bells, which we could'nt afford then. Peasants built those rich cathedrals we see. Poor farmers built those wonderful churches we see in Idaho. What reason do rich suburbanites have for building stadiums with little or no Catholic imagery, with terrible layouts and the tabernacle out somewhere? If people who made less than us could build St.Patrick's, why do we build the Taj Mahoney? Yes, it took my parish nearly 20 years to get to [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdtreat/1352541024/in/set-72157601835885816/"]This[/url], but it's well worth it. Let's build God a palace, not a trailer.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Deo Iuvente

[Justin86]

[quote name='Deo Iuvente' post='1520881' date='May 7 2008, 10:06 AM']What reason do rich suburbanites have for building stadiums with little or no Catholic imagery, with terrible layouts and the tabernacle out somewhere?[/quote]
Shhhh, don't make the rich feel bad now! Just let them tell themselves that it only costs too much money for a real church so they have to build a bowling alley instead.